I made a thread that is peppered w/complaints from owners on AVS. I know of at least one user who has since moved on to Denon. I'm sure there are more since ART came out.
That's a terrible comparison! Who compares retail price (Denon) against street price (Onkyo)? We all know (or at least we should by now) that Denon has a beefier amp/power output logic, stronger DSP for ART, and appropriate heatsinks where HDMI failure is not as likely in the more expensive 3800. I've said it before: you get what you pay for!
Do we live in different realities? I see 3 answers there and no complaint about protected mode for over 1.5 year. Well, it is some kind of proof
Then I'd like for you to qualify your statement as such in your original post. It's not fair for me to correct my speculations and/or untruths just for your post to sit somewhere as "fact" in the meantime.
Please read it again, I posted it as my opinion, not a fact.
Yes, we live in different realities. I let the thread die because it was "unpopular" amongst owners and I still want to be a contributing and productive member (if you were an active member of AVS, you would know this). You will have no such luck here on ASR as the discovery was made by Amir here and the Onkyo apologists are in the minority.Do we live in different realities? I see 3 answers there and no complaint about protected mode for over 1.5 year. Well, it is some kind of proof
There's no mention of power draw at idle here nor the fact that it was your estimation. Besides, who estimates power output based on "idle draw"?!! Is this a thing that EEs accept?
Yes, this is exactly EE knowledge.
Ok, I will accept this as true for now as the 40W estimate is similar to the 30-35W experienced by the RZ30 "unintended 4 ohm mode". I think most people on ASR can appreciate the "elective" vs "non-elective" state even if why Onkyo decided on this is a mystery.
What "idle draw"? What's the debate here? I am just curious..
Again, the problem that virtually no RZ30 owners are having lacks a display warning if it were to occur and matching speakers is more limited to stay that way. Also, the street price of th Denon 3800H is ~$2000 with Dirac and RZ30 is ~$800 which is enough to buy SVS subs, that have their own DSP, by the way. I do think that that you are living in a different reality if your room and budget are modest and not saving enough to buy two subs choosing the RZ30 over the 3800.
Yes, my fault.
That's already happening with owners but for Amir and non-owners it's a big deal, I guess. If you have large demanding speakers and no sub, steer clear of the RZ30.
Yes, my fault.
You turn AVR on, but don't play any sound. That's idle state and you can measure power draw at power socket. This power consist of power drawn by amps and the rest of the circuits. Amps have 2 switchable supply rails. Usually for 8 Ohm speakers it is about +-60V, you can find it in service manual. For 4 Ohm it is lower and often not described in manual. The rest of the circuits works at the same voltage and draws similar power, regardless of speaker settings.
AVRs like Denon or Onkyo, use class AB amplifiers. They are proven design, which usually doesn't varies between generation. Even for different manufacurers, design is quite similar. Class AB amplifier draws a constant current at idle. This is usually around 50mA and doesn't depend on supply voltage. So for 9 amps working at +-60V you can estimate idle power as 9*0.05*120 = 54W.
My guess is that the rest of the circuit draws about 10-20W. Let say it is 15W. Then idle power at 8 Ohm setting could be 15 + 54 ~= 70W.
If you set AVR for 4 Ohm, then idle power decrease. Let say it is 40W. Substracting 15W for the rest of circuits, we get 25W for amps. And we can calculate supply voltage: 25/9/0.05 ~= 56V = +-28V
That was a simplified calculation of idle power. In reality we can measure idle power at power socket, but we don't know what is voltage of supply rails or power drawn by the rest of the circuits. That is kind of guesswork. I think 60V for rails is quite good estimation. 15W for rest not so, but it could work. Let say we measure idle power as above, 70W and 40W. From measured values and assumed values we can calculate low voltage for rails:
Vlow = 2*60V*(40W - 15W)/(70W - 15W) ~= 2*27V
Supply voltage for rails is not stabilised. It drops at high output power. Drop could be as much as 1/3 of idle voltage. So for 60V we get about 40V, for 27V we get max 18V at full power output. It is a rough estimation, that can be uset to calculate maximum output power with sinusoidal test signal. It would be:
for 8 Ohm settings, 4 Ohm real load, +-60V rails: 40*40/4/2 = 200W
for 4 Ohm settings, 4 Ohm real load, +-27V rails: 18*18/4/2 = 40.5W
More or less this is my reasoning to estimate output power of Denon with 4 Ohm settings. I don't remember the real values I have measured. I only remember my estimation. Sure, it could be wrong, my memory is really weak
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