Onkyo TX-NR7100 AVR Review

[antcollinet]

Played pure Direct, with the same Audessy settings i had been using for years....the music was fatguing.

Pure direct turns off all DSP in the AVR - so you are not using Audessey if you are using pure direct.

"Fatiguing" is nearly always a frequency response issue. In this case without any room correction, this is most likely due to speaker/room interaction - not the amp. The amp (Like all halfway decent amps) has flat frequency response. Certainly trying to solve this by changing the DAC will only take you on an expensive highway to nowhere.

So if you want to solve the fatiguing problem your best bet is to get a good working room correction, with a target curve that suits your preference. I used audessey one to achieve this. My system sounds stunning now, whether for music or movies - using the same Audessey set up.

Certainly it is worth putting in some work to get this working. It is cost free if you already have the Denon/Audessey phone app - only about £$20 if you don't.

 

[beagleman]

If the AVR is sufficient to meet the needs of the speaker / room, then an external amp will add nothing.

It is only if the AVR's power amp performance envelope does NOT meet the needs of the speaker/room - in my case a speaker that goes down to 1.6 ohm and requires a high current power supply - using external and APPROPRIATE (!) amps made a substantive and immediately noticeable difference compared to the Integra DRX3.4 internal amps.

Those same external amps made no noticeable difference when compared to an Onkyo SR876 or Integra DTR70.4 (similar amp specs to the RZ70/DRX8.4).... so for my case, I expect the NR7100/DRX3.4 or RZ50/DRX5.4 would be improved in my setup with appropriate external amps.... but the RZ70/DRX8.4 I would not expect any improvement .... it has much higher current power supply, and would most likely handle the difficult speaker load without trouble.

So for those who have easy to drive 8ohm speakers - external power amps amount to bling....

I think in my case, I have "Read" way too much about AVRs being underpowered or not able to handle anything less than 6-8 ohms etc.

I think the case for AVRs not being capable, is played up a good bit.
Sure a separate power amp usually will do lower impedances "Easier", but I think there tends to be a good bit of exaggeration about the average AVR not being good enough.

Maybe a semi partial audiophile "Myth" to some extent.

 

[EWL5]

I think in my case, I have "Read" way too much about AVRs being underpowered or not able to handle anything less than 6-8 ohms etc.

I think the case for AVRs not being capable, is played up a good bit.
Sure a separate power amp usually will do lower impedances "Easier", but I think there tends to be a good bit of exaggeration about the average AVR not being good enough.

Maybe a semi partial audiophile "Myth" to some extent.

I can't tell in your response if you realize the 2021 PAC products (7100/DRX3.4, RZ50/DRX5.4 all of which dlaloum called out) suffer specifically from a "limp mode" when driving low impedance speakers. I don't think dlaloum is specifically saying ALL AVRs have issues driving low impedance loads as my Denon 3800 definitely does not!

If you're not familiar w/this "limp mode", I suggest you read the first post in this thread!

 

[beagleman]

I can't tell in your response if you realize the 2021 PAC products (7100/DRX3.4, RZ50/DRX5.4 all of which dlaloum called out) suffer specifically from a "limp mode" when driving low impedance speakers. I don't think dlaloum is specifically saying ALL AVRs have issues driving low impedance loads as my Denon 3800 definitely does not!

If you're not familiar w/this "limp mode", I suggest you read the first post in this thread!

I was talking about "In general" how ATVs are portrayed on some audio forums, and yes I realize some in particular have issues, and not all are equally good etc.

 

[Miker 1102]

Pure direct turns off all DSP in the AVR - so you are not using Audessey if you are using pure direct.

"Fatiguing" is nearly always a frequency response issue. In this case without any room correction, this is most likely due to speaker/room interaction - not the amp. The amp (Like all halfway decent amps) has flat frequency response. Certainly trying to solve this by changing the DAC will only take you on an expensive highway to nowhere.

So if you want to solve the fatiguing problem your best bet is to get a good working room correction, with a target curve that suits your preference. I used audessey one to achieve this. My system sounds stunning now, whether for music or movies - using the same Audessey set up.

Certainly it is worth putting in some work to get this working. It is cost free if you already have the Denon/Audessey phone app - only about £$20 if you don't.

I appreciate the advice. I meant that I had played the 3800 in all settings including without the dsp. I used the same target curves I had previously set up in the 4400. I have decent kef speakers so I used the app and only corrected in the first reflections, turned off midrange compensation, boosted the bass, etc. I watched a tutorial on audessy a couple of years ago on Audioholics and started using rew a little.I even tried the 3800 without the dsp in direct and just thought it was to clinical and processed. Maybe it was the unit or the psychoaccoustics of change, but I couldn't do it. I was over joyed to get my sound back when I went back to the 4400. I had a surge and now use a 4500 but I love the sound. I could try again I guess. I know there is an Audyssey script enhancer called evo that is supposed to give you better control. I just didn't work to then dump another 700 to get dirac if I had the same reaction. I did switch back and forth between the two twice. I could do a simpler test now becaue I have two sets of kef q150s? I also would sell the 3800 to somebody for a very good price. It was like open box or something on accessories4less.com and has like extended warranties that are transferable.

 

[dlaloum]

So in your case the value to you of the avr must be a really good bang for the buck. I guess I can see that now. If somebody had really nice speakers that were hard to drive and already had the amplification, the preouts (with Dirac included and and halfway decent dac ) and your good to go. You had mentioned your dilemma with the art. I wonder how far that is going to trickle down. I intended on using g Dirac with the 3800 but hated the way it sounded for music and vocals. I been stuck there in the hobby since.

I am waiting for the ART release - then I will review what AVR's can handle it.... the 3800 will short list I'm sure... but the RZ30 may end up being better value... won't know for a while yet!

 

[dlaloum]

I can't tell in your response if you realize the 2021 PAC products (7100/DRX3.4, RZ50/DRX5.4 all of which dlaloum called out) suffer specifically from a "limp mode" when driving low impedance speakers. I don't think dlaloum is specifically saying ALL AVRs have issues driving low impedance loads as my Denon 3800 definitely does not!

If you're not familiar w/this "limp mode", I suggest you read the first post in this thread!

Nope, pretty much ALL the mass market models cut corners on the power supply - which then leads to issues driving low impedance loads.

How they behave under the low impedance load situation varies.

My experience with the Integra DRX3.4 was that it did NOT go into "limp mode", but it simply didn't sound as good as it should - lost focus, imaging was confused, - switching to external amps immediately resolved it.

The 3800 / 4800 have similar current constraints - in the Onkyo family it is only the RZ70 (and siblings) that have substantive current capacity, in the Denon family the 6800 is reasonable (but not as capable as the RZ70) - and you have to go up to the A1H to get solid current - but that is serious $$$

 

[EWL5]

Nope, pretty much ALL the mass market models cut corners on the power supply - which then leads to issues driving low impedance loads.

How they behave under the low impedance load situation varies.

My experience with the Integra DRX3.4 was that it did NOT go into "limp mode", but it simply didn't sound as good as it should - lost focus, imaging was confused, - switching to external amps immediately resolved it.

The 3800 / 4800 have similar current constraints - in the Onkyo family it is only the RZ70 (and siblings) that have substantive current capacity, in the Denon family the 6800 is reasonable (but not as capable as the RZ70) - and you have to go up to the A1H to get solid current - but that is serious $$$

You'll have to find anecdotal accounts for me where the 3800/4800 did poorly (in real world listening sessions) on low impedance loads (Amir's bench test didn't find anything out of the ordinary). As a Denon 3800 owner, I'm all over the Denon related threads and have yet to hear complaints leading to...

...my master thread of the limp mode issue where I've collected anecdotal evidence from all over for 2021 PAC products (hang tight)!

 

[EWL5]

I posted over at AVS since they allow me to edit the first post anytime (but ASR doesn't).
You comment is featured @dlaloum!

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/63676894/

 

[andrewskaterrr]

Nope, pretty much ALL the mass market models cut corners on the power supply - which then leads to issues driving low impedance loads.

How they behave under the low impedance load situation varies.

My experience with the Integra DRX3.4 was that it did NOT go into "limp mode", but it simply didn't sound as good as it should - lost focus, imaging was confused, - switching to external amps immediately resolved it.

The 3800 / 4800 have similar current constraints - in the Onkyo family it is only the RZ70 (and siblings) that have substantive current capacity, in the Denon family the 6800 is reasonable (but not as capable as the RZ70) - and you have to go up to the A1H to get solid current - but that is serious $$$

Remember that the RZ30 and RZ50 only have a single sub channel, so Dirac ART isn’t possible, as you need at least 2.

Also the power limiting on the NR7100 is now fixed since the update.

 

[ban25]

Remember that the RZ30 and RZ50 only have a single sub channel, so Dirac ART isn’t possible, as you need at least 2.

RZ30 has two independent sub outputs.

https://assets.onkyo-av.com/spec-sheets/EMEA-Onkyo-TX-RZ30-Spec-sheet-EN.pdf?v=1726817641

 

[ban25]

Remember that the RZ30 and RZ50 only have a single sub channel, so Dirac ART isn’t possible, as you need at least 2.

Also the power limiting on the NR7100 is now fixed since the update.

Also, as I understand it, ART does not require subwoofers at all and has been demoed at Cedia and elsewhere in 2.0 stereo/full-range configuration.

 

[andrewskaterrr]

I appreciate the advice. I meant that I had played the 3800 in all settings including without the dsp. I used the same target curves I had previously set up in the 4400. I have decent kef speakers so I used the app and only corrected in the first reflections, turned off midrange compensation, boosted the bass, etc. I watched a tutorial on audessy a couple of years ago on Audioholics and started using rew a little.I even tried the 3800 without the dsp in direct and just thought it was to clinical and processed. Maybe it was the unit or the psychoaccoustics of change, but I couldn't do it. I was over joyed to get my sound back when I went back to the 4400. I had a surge and now use a 4500 but I love the sound. I could try again I guess. I know there is an Audyssey script enhancer called evo that is supposed to give you better control. I just didn't work to then dump another 700 to get dirac if I had the same reaction. I did switch back and forth between the two twice. I could do a simpler test now becaue I have two sets of kef q150s? I also would sell the 3800 to somebody for a very good price. It was like open box or something on accessories4less.com and has like extended warranties that are transferable.

I came to say what Antcollinet said. Fatigue is “more high frequencies”, whether that’s above neutral/flat, more than your possibly damaged ears can handle, or reflections in the room are now stronger in the high frequencies and causing fatigue.
I actually had that last issue with my old Marantz SR5010. I found that the amps roll off the treble. When I bypassed them with external amps (Outlaw 7000x), the high frequencies became fatiguing due to my speakers and the lack of acoustic treatment. It wasn’t an issue before because the amps were rolling off that area, so it wasn’t fatiguing. Same issue when I swapped it out with the JBL SDP-55. On the flip side, the sound was much better overall as I could hear the higher frequencies better than with the Marantz Amps. I wonder if this is what you’re experiencing: Proper neutral performance now creating issues that were previously “bypassed” by non-neutral AVR performance?

 

[andrewskaterrr]

Also, as I understand it, ART does not require subwoofers at all and has been demoed at Cedia and elsewhere in 2.0 stereo/full-range configuration.

Oh wow I didn’t think they’d make the RZ30 better than the RZ50, that’s going to confuse people, unless they unlock the RZ50 to do it too.
You’re right. I was confused for a second and reversed how ART works lol. Yes, ART should work with even in 2.0, although I hadn’t thought about that before. I hope we see cheaper devices come out with ART, because it’d be nice to have it in even a cheap 2.0 setup like a bedroom or office.

 

[EWL5]

Also the power limiting on the NR7100 is now fixed since the update.

Did anyone bench test again to prove this or is it just assumed based on the firmware changelog?

 

[Miker 1102]

I came to say what Antcollinet said. Fatigue is “more high frequencies”, whether that’s above neutral/flat, more than your possibly damaged ears can handle, or reflections in the room are now stronger in the high frequencies and causing fatigue.
I actually had that last issue with my old Marantz SR5010. I found that the amps roll off the treble. When I bypassed them with external amps (Outlaw 7000x), the high frequencies became fatiguing due to my speakers and the lack of acoustic treatment. It wasn’t an issue before because the amps were rolling off that area, so it wasn’t fatiguing. Same issue when I swapped it out with the JBL SDP-55. On the flip side, the sound was much better overall as I could hear the higher frequencies better than with the Marantz Amps. I wonder if this is what you’re experiencing: Proper neutral performance now creating issues that were previously “bypassed” by non-neutral AVR performance?

That's an excellent explanation as the amp architecture in the 3800 changed. Maybe they actually are more neutral and I am getting that affect. I never thought about that. So the presentation would be better overall and maybe I need to measure the room and check. It's a bit of work but I really did want a Denon with Dirac. I tried the mid range poineer/onkyo/Integera and returned them before the 50 and 70 came out. They were cheaply made. I wanted auro 3d as well. Thank you for making taking the time to make this point it makes a lot of sense.

 

[dlaloum]

Remember that the RZ30 and RZ50 only have a single sub channel, so Dirac ART isn’t possible, as you need at least 2.

Also the power limiting on the NR7100 is now fixed since the update.

That is not right, Dirac specifically state that ART works fine with single subs or even with no subs (using full range speakers).

Also the RZ50 has dual sub outputs on a SINGLE channel
but the RZ30 claims to have dual independent sub channels

 

[dlaloum]

Oh wow I didn’t think they’d make the RZ30 better than the RZ50, that’s going to confuse people, unless they unlock the RZ50 to do it too.
You’re right. I was confused for a second and reversed how ART works lol. Yes, ART should work with even in 2.0, although I hadn’t thought about that before. I hope we see cheaper devices come out with ART, because it’d be nice to have it in even a cheap 2.0 setup like a bedroom or office.

There has to be hardware in the RZ30 to do the extra channel - hence it is highly unlikely that an extra channel will be "unlocked" in the RZ50

 

[andrewskaterrr]

Did anyone bench test again to prove this or is it just assumed based on the firmware changelog?

One of the users here posted his before/after power readings. No new sweeps. I don’t Amir wants me to send it back out, plus I’ve been starting to use it now.

 

[andrewskaterrr]

There has to be hardware in the RZ30 to do the extra channel - hence it is highly unlikely that an extra channel will be "unlocked" in the RZ50

Ya I know that, I almost wrote that but figured that it was obvious lol.