Onkyo ready to unveil Dirac ART-capable products at CES

[darth]

Here I was hoping that more manufacturers take up providing digital outputs in their next versions

 

[kyuu]

Here I was hoping that more manufacturers take up providing digital outputs in their next versions

I rather suspect that's not likely to be a thing with AVRs. I certainly think it should be a thing for AVPs, though, or at least another class of device that can take in Dolby/DTS bitstreams and output decoded digital streams for use by downstream devices. I'm not sure the Dolby/DTS licensing allows such a thing however.

 

[dlaloum]

My main takeaways from the video:

1) The conceptual pic showed "Tone Listing Mode" instead of "Tone Listening Mode", which probably makes this an AI creation. I'm thinking we don't see production hardware until late 2027.
2) The RZ51 shows only 9 channels now whereas the new RZ61 shows 11 channels. Perhaps they got rid of 2 channels processing on the RZ51 to promote the "tweener" RZ61?
3) RZ61 and RZ71 both process only 11 channels still and not able to compete directly w/the Denon 6800 (can process 13 channels).
4) The new RZ91 processor only has "Dirac ART supported". A lost opportunity for differentiation in this segment.

Exciting for Onkyo fans but not enough of a buzz to steal D&M market share. It would be very disappointing if the new lineup doesn't offer 4 discrete sub-outs now that ART is on the table.

There seems to be some confusion with regards to channel numbers.

I believe their channel count excludes subs...

Hence the RZ71 is mentioned as 11 channels (ie: 7.x.4) - if you also count the subwoofer channels - and assuming the current RZ70 is the baseline, it would in fact be 7.2.4 ie: 13 channels

I would treat those channel numbers with a pinch of salt... they are more than likely referring to "powered channels" on the AVR's
and as we know there is a difference between "powered channels" (ie: number of amps in the chassis) vs processed channels (which includes subwoofer channels, and for some models, 1 or more of the height channel pairs)

Given where current developments are at, and the competition, I would hope that the RZ71 has 4 sub channels... basically sharing the RZ91's DSP/DAC circuitry? (which would imply 15 true processing channels)

 

[dlaloum]

Here I was hoping that more manufacturers take up providing digital outputs in their next versions

O/I have in the past provided that kind of functionality in the Integra rather than Onkyo range - targeting the custom install HT market.

If they release an Integra version of the RZ91 - that is where I would be looking for Dante (or similar) outputs

 

[darth]

I rather suspect that's not likely to be a thing with AVRs. I certainly think it should be a thing for AVPs, though, or at least another class of device that can take in Dolby/DTS bitstreams and output decoded digital streams for use by downstream devices. I'm not sure the Dolby/DTS licensing allows such a thing however.

Yea probably not AVRs but lineups could offer processors like you say.

Trinnov made a jump to digital with Altitude CI, and so did Audiocontrol Pro Hyperion. Both to be released in the next couple of months. Cheaper (with less channels and less functionality) devices like Nuprime-X H16 already out.

 

[valerianf]

Let us wait for the product tests to see if there is any sound improvement.
I got a TX RZ30 and may be interested in the RZ51 if the DAC is a better model.
The new display is more modern.

 

[dlaloum]

Let us wait for the product tests to see if there is any sound improvement.
I got a TX RZ30 and may be interested in the RZ51 if the DAC is a better model.
The new display is more modern.

A couple of ESS model numbers appear on the CES placard... how meaningful they are is anyones guess

 

[Descartes]

It seems that AUDIO has pretty much disappeared from CES ;(

 

[EWL5]

There seems to be some confusion with regards to channel numbers.

I believe their channel count excludes subs...

Hence the RZ71 is mentioned as 11 channels (ie: 7.x.4) - if you also count the subwoofer channels - and assuming the current RZ70 is the baseline, it would in fact be 7.2.4 ie: 13 channels

I would treat those channel numbers with a pinch of salt... they are more than likely referring to "powered channels" on the AVR's
and as we know there is a difference between "powered channels" (ie: number of amps in the chassis) vs processed channels (which includes subwoofer channels, and for some models, 1 or more of the height channel pairs)

Given where current developments are at, and the competition, I would hope that the RZ71 has 4 sub channels... basically sharing the RZ91's DSP/DAC circuitry? (which would imply 15 true processing channels)

Yeah, I'm just wonder why the RZ61 exists and the reason I think Onkyo is reducing the processing of the RZ51 to a straight 9 instead of the current 11.

Current lineup:
RZ50 - power for 9 channels, can process 11
RZ70 - power for 11 channels, can process 11

Why does an RZ61 need to exist other than reducing capability of the RZ51? It doesn't appear the new RZ71 can do better than 11 channels so this is a real head scratcher...

 

[dlaloum]

Yeah, I'm just wonder why the RZ61 exists and the reason I think Onkyo is reducing the processing of the RZ51 to a straight 9 instead of the current 11.

Current lineup:
RZ50 - power for 9 channels, can process 11
RZ70 - power for 11 channels, can process 11

Why does an RZ61 need to exist other than reducing capability of the RZ51? It doesn't appear the new RZ71 can do better than 11 channels so this is a real head scratcher...

First thought is - the subs need a channel each... and the subs are NOT powered.

So an AVR for 5.2.4 has 11 channels, but only needs 9 powered channels

An AVR for 7.2.4 has 13 channels but only needs 11 powered channels

There is confusion due to people not defining what is being discussed, total channels process?, Total Channels powered? total "full frequency" channels (excluding subs)?

I would hope to see the RZ91 & RZ71 come forwards as 7.4.4 capable processors - ie: 15 processing channels - for the RZ71, with 11 powered channels
The RZ61 could perhaps take up where the current RZ70 is, as a 7.2.4 processor - 13 processing channels, with 11 powered channels.. (at lower power rating than the RZ71?..)
The RZ51 would be a more mass market version of the RZ61 - same or very very similar processing, 13 processing channels, but only 9 powered channels (if they are smart, set it up so the Main L/R can be externally powered and their amps reassigned to one of the height channels)

 

[jonfitch]

It would be cool if this gen has passive cooling comparable to other AVRs that have only temperature controlled fans. The always-on fans on the RZ70/LX805/Integra 8.4 make these a bit too loud for passive HTPC use IMO. The models below are passive, but have too much E-core lamination noise for their price levels and feel like much cheaper products than where they are currently priced at.

 

[dlaloum]

It would be cool if this gen has passive cooling comparable to other AVRs that have only temperature controlled fans. The always-on fans on the RZ70/LX805/Integra 8.4 make these a bit too loud for passive HTPC use IMO. The models below are passive, but have too much E-core lamination noise for their price levels and feel like much cheaper products than where they are currently priced at.

Are you sure they are always on?

 

[Power Pop 23]

My main takeaways from the video:

1) The conceptual pic showed "Tone Listing Mode" instead of "Tone Listening Mode", which probably makes this an AI creation. I'm thinking we don't see production hardware until late 2027.
2) The RZ51 shows only 9 channels now whereas the new RZ61 shows 11 channels. Perhaps they got rid of 2 channels processing on the RZ51 to promote the "tweener" RZ61?
3) RZ61 and RZ71 both process only 11 channels still and not able to compete directly w/the Denon 6800 (can process 13 channels).
4) The new RZ91 processor only has "Dirac ART supported". A lost opportunity for differentiation in this segment.

Exciting for Onkyo fans but not enough of a buzz to steal D&M market share. It would be very disappointing if the new lineup doesn't offer 4 discrete sub-outs now that ART is on the table.

I don't know what it takes to remain competitive and profitable in the market for AVR's but It would seem stealing market share is required for survival.

I noted when JBL entered the AVR market with their 'MA' series they opted for an architecture weighing 16.8 pounds to 11.3 pounds - while an entry-level Denon S-570BT AVR weighs 16.8 pounds - per Crutchfield.

I wonder how much this product weight saves JBL in shipping costs compared to other AVR manufacturers.

 

[EWL5]

I don't know what it takes to remain competitive and profitable in the market for AVR's but It would seem stealing market share is required for survival.

I noted when JBL entered the AVR market with their 'MA' series they opted for an architecture weighing 16.8 pounds to 11.3 pounds - while an entry-level Denon S-570BT AVR weighs 16.8 pounds - per Crutchfield.

I wonder how much this product weight saves JBL in shipping costs compared to other AVR manufacturers.

Isn’t the MA series Class D? That would explain the weight loss.

Cheaper to ship for sure!

 

[dlaloum]

I don't know what it takes to remain competitive and profitable in the market for AVR's but It would seem stealing market share is required for survival.

I noted when JBL entered the AVR market with their 'MA' series they opted for an architecture weighing 16.8 pounds to 11.3 pounds - while an entry-level Denon S-570BT AVR weighs 16.8 pounds - per Crutchfield.

I wonder how much this product weight saves JBL in shipping costs compared to other AVR manufacturers.

A large chunk of the weight of the D&M models (and the PAC Onkyo/Integra models) is the transformer and capacitors that make up the traditional "linear" power supply.

The JBL MA series use switch mode power supplies as well as class D amps - resulting in reduced weight in the power supply, as well as reduced need for heavy heatsinks on the amps as well (a comment I make with some caution, as there may be longevity issues as a consequence of limited heatsinking).

So they are not apples and apples comparisons - for a flagship model 17pounds is remarkably light - the equivalent models from D&M, O/I are heavier...

The discussion of Linear PSU vs switching PSU, and Class D vs Class AB is quite a seperate thing

 

[kyuu]

The JBL MA series use switch mode power supplies as well as class D amps - resulting in reduced weight in the power supply, as well as reduced need for heavy heatsinks on the amps as well (a comment I make with some caution, as there may be longevity issues as a consequence of limited heatsinking).

Limited heat sinking?

Looks more substantial than the typical spring steel stuff you get in low- to mid-end traditional AVRs.

 

[jonfitch]

Are you sure they are always on?

Yep, and also they increase rpm depending on the volume level, even if nothing is playing back on the receivers. In fact you can just plug them to the wall and turn it on with nothing connected to it, and the fans will rev up in rpm as you turn the volume knob up.

 

[Power Pop 23]

A large chunk of the weight of the D&M models (and the PAC Onkyo/Integra models) is the transformer and capacitors that make up the traditional "linear" power supply.

The JBL MA series use switch mode power supplies as well as class D amps - resulting in reduced weight in the power supply, as well as reduced need for heavy heatsinks on the amps as well (a comment I make with some caution, as there may be longevity issues as a consequence of limited heatsinking).

So they are not apples and apples comparisons - for a flagship model 17pounds is remarkably light - the equivalent models from D&M, O/I are heavier...

The discussion of Linear PSU vs switching PSU, and Class D vs Class AB is quite a seperate thing

Agreed.

It is my perception that shipping costs have remained relatively high since the economic disruption of the pandemic and this has impacted the cost of audio gear that is bulky and relatively heavy - like a tower loudspeaker.

Against this backdrop, I think JBL designed a series of AVR's less sensitive to shipping costs - as a competitve cost advantage in the overall market for AVR's.

I was disappointed JBL didn't think there was enough of a business reason to offer preamplifier outputs on any of their 'MA' AVR's - save jacks for a Zone 2 space.

 

[dlaloum]

Limited heat sinking?

View attachment 504296

Looks more substantial than the typical spring steel stuff you get in low- to mid-end traditional AVRs.

Consider that the PSU is also a source of heat in such a Switch Mode design, and its heatsinking is minimal (or provided by the floor of the case... still not ideal)

having said that - if everything is running cool... then it may be correctly engineered

And yes that is damn good heatsinking, especially when you consider all the class D modules out there with nothing but a base bolted to the bottom of the case for their heatsinks!

 

[dlaloum]

Agreed.

It is my perception that shipping costs have remained relatively high since the economic disruption of the pandemic and this has impacted the cost of audio gear that is bulky and relatively heavy - like a tower loudspeaker.

Against this backdrop, I think JBL designed a series of AVR's less sensitive to shipping costs - as a competitve cost advantage in the overall market for AVR's.

I was disappointed JBL didn't think there was enough of a business reason to offer preamplifier outputs on any of their 'MA' AVR's - save jacks for a Zone 2 space.

Perhaps they didn't want the MA series to cannibalise their sales of the Synthesis series....

Still to be seen what Harman do about Dirac ART.... with the JBL / Lexicon / Harman / Arcam brands.... (now that they own D&M I guess it might be less of an issue, and they might let them wither on the vine, as they have in the past!)