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One sub or two?

richard12511

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What do you mean by "you need something"? You can just input everything manually to each Genelec speaker/subwoofer.

Most subs don't have that. My JTR subs kinda do, but it's limited to 1ms intervals.

I was assuming no Genelec subs. If you've got 4x 7370 or something, then yeah. The connectivity and rich feature set is the thing I love about my Genelec subs.

However, unless one needs the studio connectivity and features, or just really wants an all in one EQ system, I would recommend not going with Genelec subs at most budgets. Especially with 2-4 subs, since GLM doesn't properly handle that (yet). The objective performance of Genelec subs(while great for the size and watts they use), are also not competitive with the performance of subs from the "sub only" companies(like HSU, Rythmik, etc.). I do really appreciate that Genelec shared their CEA-2010 data, even if not for current models.

PS: I know you're a very knowledgeable Genelec guy. Any insight on the multi-sub GLM support timeline? In my office, I'm using 2x 8030 + 2x 7370 with REW and miniDSP based EQ. I've thought about upgrading to 8330s to get GLM support(since I like what it does with the 8351s in my main room). The main thing holding me back is the lack of multi-sub support :(. From what I'd heard, it's on their radar, but not a huge priority(is multi-sub not common in the studio environment?). One of the main reasons I'm hoping that's changed is that I've heard that Neumann is currently working on multi-sub support with their MA-1 system.
 

hege

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Most subs don't have that. My JTR subs kinda do, but it's limited to 1ms intervals.

I was assuming no Genelec subs. If you've got 4x 7370 or something, then yeah. The connectivity and rich feature set is the thing I love about my Genelec subs.

Yeah I assumed the discussion related to "GLM multi-sub support" which naturally assumes all-Genelec set..

I agree with Genelec subs value, thus my sig setup..

PS: I know you're a very knowledgeable Genelec guy. Any insight on the multi-sub GLM support timeline?

No clue really. GLM development always seemed very slow and often buggy, so I wouldn't hold my breath..
 

JustJones

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From what I understand, GLM doesn't handle multiple subs properly. It will no doubt EQ multiple subs if you add them to the grid, but I think it treats them as individual units without considering the overall interaction between all of them. I believe @Sancus ask Genelec support about this some time ago and it was confirmed. I understand it's a feature they plan to add at some point, but may not be a priority atm. Not saying you can't get lucky and get a great summed result via GLM, but if I'm starting new, I would definitely opt for a a program that actually supports multi-sub properly(DLBM, AL, MSO), or do it manually via REW.

I believe you're correct. I use the dual sub AES setup shown on page 78? in the manual. It pairs the sub to the monitor according to channel. Sub 1 monitor 1 channel A, Sub 2 monitor 2 channel B. It relieves the monitors from low frequency and gives a bit more low end but I don't think it's giving a summed result. Both subs show the same null at 40hz but the phase is set close to opposite. One is 160 the other -135. I'm not well versed in sub integration which is why I let GLM do what it does the result sounds good.
 

Sancus

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GLM is currently inferior to MiniDSP+REW for multi-sub management

Is there general agreement on this statement please?

Yes. And you can buy cheaper subs that will significantly outperform Genelec subs at the same time. However, it is a significant investment in time and effort to learn how to use MiniDSP + REW + Multi-Sub Optimizer. Genelec is selling a one-step solution that takes maybe 5 minutes to setup after you're done connecting your speakers which guarantees good integration.

As far as 2 subs go, it's reasonable to start with 1, measure and listen and then decide what you want to do. It's important to remember that subs can only solve issues below the crossover. Sometimes 100-500hz issues are much worse than <100hz ones.
 
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VBSurrey

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Hi Everyone,

Many thanks for all the responses. I am humbled that so many of you would take the time to help me.

Would it be correct to summarise as follows?

  • Two subs are better than one
  • Four subs are better than two
  • GLM is great for integrating one sub but not that great at integrating a multi- sub installation


Given statement 3 above the question is why invest inGenelec if the result in a multi-sub environment is going to be suboptimal.

This points to buying cheaper subs and spending time integrating them
 

richard12511

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Hi Everyone,

Many thanks for all the responses. I am humbled that so many of you would take the time to help me.

Would it be correct to summarise as follows?

  • Two subs are better than one
  • Four subs are better than two
  • GLM is great for integrating one sub but not that great at integrating a multi- sub installation


Given statement 3 above the question is why invest inGenelec if the result in a multi-sub environment is going to be suboptimal.

This points to buying cheaper subs and spending time integrating them

I would agree with your 3 points above.

Not saying you can't get a great multi-sub result with Genelec subs + GLM, but similarly priced subwoofer company subs(HSU, Rythmik, etc.) + MSO + miniDSP has a much higher potential.
 

ptong

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Many preprocessors have the ability to tune 2 subs individually for rooms, and then to integrate them for a flatter room response...
(a) any recommendations on hardware and/or software to use when you move up to 4 subs in a room? (I don't want to have to crawl around the floor... I just want sweep tones, automatic eq, etc.)
(b) has anyone used one of these preprocessors just as a crossover for driving the subs in a 2-channel system?... and what's the results?

Thanks!
 

YSC

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Somehow I am kind of puzzled for the use of 2 or more subs to fill in all null dips.

now I am running my tiny room a pair of 8030 with the 7040A due to size constrain in a 2.1 setup. The bass extension now becomes full and almost full range to 25hz or so referencing to the mids level.
In my imagination using another 7040 could let me place the subs at two extremes of my room to let the room modes to be non existing for one sub at a time, but my question is:

given I have to level down in. 2 sub config to make the bass level align with the main monitors at the frequencies not affected by room modes, so each sub is playing at half the level compared to a single sub situation, so in the case of one sub triggering the room mode cancelling out its Response at that frequency, the remaining sub although is still outputting normally, wouldn’t it be half the level of what it should be?
 
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VBSurrey

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Hi Everyone,

I think I will start with2 non Genelec subs. So, the question is - how do I calibrate them? Any suggestions please?
 

nerdoldnerdith

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Hi Everyone,

I think I will start with2 non Genelec subs. So, the question is - how do I calibrate them? Any suggestions please?
I'd get a MiniDSP.

A good AVR can also manage subwoofers pretty well. The Denon X3600H or X3700H has great DAC performance and the ability to manage two subwoofers. It's not as user customizable as a MiniDSP, but it can do EQ and delay, which is all you really need on the digital end. Plus, it will allow you to add heights and surrounds for when you want to take your setup to the next level. ;)
 
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richard12511

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Hi Everyone,

I think I will start with2 non Genelec subs. So, the question is - how do I calibrate them? Any suggestions please?

I kinda forget your setup. What are you using for source/pre-amp. The Denon mentioned above is a good suggestion. While it can handle 2 subs, I'm not actually aware of how Audyssey handles the two sub outs. Does it correct the sum? Or does it do what GLM does(correct individually)? I know that it will definitely time align them for you.

miniDSP is another option if. More manual, but has higher potential.
 

bo_knows

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I kinda forget your setup. What are you using for source/pre-amp. The Denon mentioned above is a good suggestion. While it can handle 2 subs, I'm not actually aware of how Audyssey handles the two sub outs. Does it correct the sum? Or does it do what GLM does(correct individually)? I know that it will definitely time align them for you.

miniDSP is another option if. More manual, but has higher potential.
Flexibility comes with the Audyssey phone/tablet app that will let you do whatever you want with any speaker including the subwoofer(s).
 
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VBSurrey

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Thanks Guys.

Setup
Content - 98% rips using EAC and a Plextor optical drive. A few downloads
Server - i7 16 Gb/ 1 Tb SSD set up as NUC
DAC - Okto Research DAC 8
Preamp - Topping 90 Pre
Power amp - Nord Purifi
Speakers - Golden Ear Triton Ones

Thanks again
 

Scoox

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I use 2 Genelec 7350 subwoofers paired with 2 8351b and GLM manages them. I know Genelec recommends the 7370 with those monitors but in my room the 2 7350 provide all the bass I want and cost was a factor as Genelec subs are pricy. I'm pretty sure GLM will recognize more than 2 subwoofers.
It's been over a year since your reply, was wondering how you are liking your 7350A subs. Two weeks ago I was able to audition the 8351As with a single 7360A. Obviously Genelec recommend the 7370A but honestly I felt the 7360A was already overpowered for my needs, and then I could also get for the same price a pair of 7350A subs like you did. Where did you place your subs?
 

srrxr71

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Hi Forum

Where did the notion that two subwoofers are necessary come from. Every sub I have looked at from the affordable Yamahas to the pricey Genelecs have two analogue XLR inputs (L+R) and two XLR outputs for the studio monitors (L+R).

In fact Genelec who call themselves ‘the world leader in studio monitors ‘seller bundle which they call a stereo bundle comprising

2X8320 SAM monitors

1 X 7350 subwoofer


Is there any evidence that two subs are required or is this just another case of audiophile folklore?


Appreciate any feedback


Kind regards
I have Genelecs and they really do push the one sub concept. This is right or wrong depending on your crossover frequency.

I can tell you that with one sub even crossed at 80Hz I could clearly localize it when I ran a frequency sweep. Maybe 60Hz would have been better.

So maybe if I had it in the middle it would have been okay.

This is just for imagining reasons.

Now as others have mentioned if you want smooth bass around the room the more the better.

I read an article which showed that 3 is the optimal number and then you get diminishing returns after that. I would stop at 4 personally.

Also you can consider that Genelec customers would have treated rooms so if the room is well treated one sub may be smooth enough around the room. Also Genelec can correct for the response at the listening position.

So there are many factors one has to take into consideration and we cannot issue blanket statements.
 

sonitus mirus

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My room had a couple steep nulls using one 15" sub no matter where we placed it. Because the nulls were at 36 and 68 Hz, we did not need a massive second subwoofer. Adding a small second sub, an SVS SB-1000 Pro with their Soundpath wireless adapter allowed us freedom to place the sub in a location to eliminate the room nulls.

I used the same SVS sub to help with a 68 Hz null with two floor speakers in a small room. This room is only for music listening, and all of the speakers are sitting on nice isolation pads in a carpeted office space with a high, slanted ceiling and a moderate amount of room treatment. The null is still present, but it is no longer a pit of despair and the measurement shows a nice improvement.

For most music I listen to, the sub is barely noticeable, but I am able to tell when my custom settings are reset back to default or the sub is off without having to rely on some song with a crazy amount of sub bass. A lot of Prince's songs have a ton of sub bass that I was not fully aware of before setting up the subwoofer in the room.
 

srrxr71

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It's been over a year since your reply, was wondering how you are liking your 7350A subs. Two weeks ago I was able to audition the 8351As with a single 7360A. Obviously Genelec recommend the 7370A but honestly I felt the 7360A was already overpowered for my needs, and then I could also get for the same price a pair of 7350A subs like you did. Where did you place your subs?
Sadly this really matters. I was about to get a pair of 7350s. Instead I went with one 7360. It was more than enough for my old listening space.

Then I moved. Played some Grateful Dead song and found it clipping. Ordered another 7360. This helped a lot. Now I put in a lot of room treatments. Bass traps to cover resonant walls and corner traps.

It still clips on certain tracks. Now i’m looking to get maybe 1 or 2 more. The starting $6k price of the 8341s is a bargain imho. But now i’m looking at $10k(!!!) in subs and probably also upgrading to the 8351b.

So you have to keep in mind if your space changes or you add in room treatments things change.

If I read what I wrote above I would suspect the person owns stock or equity in Genelec. I assure you that I don’t. But this was a hard lesson for me.

Maybe I just need to get used to listening a little softer. I do like my music at 104dB. Some songs are recorded for playback at that level and come alive at that level.

It is my understanding that the balance of fundamental and overtones in a recording are a function of the level the music was played at during recording. So if you hit that during playback it sounds natural.

Also I remember an elementary school science fair project I did involving genres of music and effects on pulse rate. The one examiner dinged me very hard by asking why I didn’t play the rock music at 120dB as it was meant to be listened to. I standardized all genres to 90dB. I should have answered that way. Instead I blamed equipment limitations and did not go to regional. Oh well. That man was right though about the 120dB haha.
 

muslhead

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My room had a couple steep nulls using one 15" sub no matter where we placed it. Because the nulls were at 36 and 68 Hz, we did not need a massive second subwoofer. Adding a small second sub, an SVS SB-1000 Pro with their Soundpath wireless adapter allowed us freedom to place the sub in a location to eliminate the room nulls.
Doesnt this setup create a timing issue since the SVS is wireless and the inherent delay it causes?
If so, how did you correct this? REW?
 

Jbrunwa

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Doesnt this setup create a timing issue since the SVS is wireless and the inherent delay it causes?
If so, how did you correct this? REW?
Audyssey or Dirac automatically compensates for the extra wireless delay as long as the difference doesn’t exceed the AVR’s max speaker delay/distance parameter value. So to Audyssey it just appears that the subwoofer is further away than the physical distance.
 
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