One of the most interesting from a High End Audio Reviewer

[FrantzM]

Hi

Candid to a fault. I think many here you would like such quiet and honest perspective.

http://www.soundstageultra.com/inde...39-jeffs-getting-a-new-stereo-system-part-one

 

[The Smokester]

Excellent. He has the same reference frame I now have, although my kids are long gone. Got it bookmarked and waiting for subsequent articles.

 

[Rodney Gold]

I reckon the "new" hifi system will eclipse the $100k mark , which is still an obscene amount of money in most audiophiles books...

 

[The Smokester]

That's about what my last one retailed for. Right now I'm thinking $40k for the same performance, digital source only. If, for example, these new DSP-driven speakers pan out maybe even less.

Very interested to see what he comes up with.

 

[Purité Audio]

A pair of Kii Three , job done, not much use for reviewing but great for listening to music.
Keith

 

[The Smokester]

A pair of Kii Three , job done, not much use for reviewing but great for listening to music.
Keith

"...not much use for reviewing...": Is that because they are not suffieintly expensive?

And, what about the D&D 8m's? I know you are measuring them to be very similar but are you developing a preference for one over the other?

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Having been at this hobby for many decades, this is refreshing. From a published reviewer who has been on the orthodox treadmill for awhile, his article was welcome. Boy, I hope those guys at WBF do not see the article.

I have to pat myself on the back though. I saw that the emperor had no clothes 10 years ago. It was largely marketing to our human weaknesses and vanity as audiophiles that was driving much of the high end and its insane upward price spiral.

I still do not think everything sounds the same, though. It is just the the differences are getting smaller and the law of diminishing returns is more pervasive than ever.

 

[The Smokester]

...Boy, I hope those guys at WBF do not see the article.

Too late:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...tting-a-New-Stereo-System&p=458684#post458684

 

[tomelex]

At WBF it is mostly about the cost of the item as its perceived value. There are folks in this world that "know" that cost relates to "the best". The audio companies pander to them with exorbitant pricing, well, as long as the ride lasts, they will go for it. It makes great business sense. However, there used to be a time when a company made something for the common everyday man and then made "enhanced" stuff, going on up the ladder, you know, good, better, best.

One time in a thread there, I was making a point with one of their biggest early contributors, MEP, and I was talking about two boxes, one costing 2K and the other 22K and how would you decide which one was better, and the answer came back, the more expensive one obviously was better.

And no Jeff says he is not sure that's the route to go but sound over cost is what matters to his new way of thinking......the very fact of what MEP did and what conclusion Jeff has come to just shows how off the rails so many folks are.

A product that does more, does better, or is unique enough could command a higher selling price than the "good" variety of course, and it should command more if it is better, but in many ways, better in the audio world is bling, as any EE student who paid attention in class can put forth an audio amp that competes with anything else out there as far as the industry standard specifications go.

 

[amirm]

It is a great article. Jeff is a good man and he says things there that few dare to say.

 

[Purité Audio]

"...not much use for reviewing...": Is that because they are not suffieintly expensive?

And, what about the D&D 8m's? I know you are measuring them to be very similar but are you developing a preference for one over the other?

I only meant that as everything is built into the Kii's and D&Ds they wouldn't be much use to a reviewer, I suppose there are a couple of mains leads and a length of Cat 6 cable, they would be useful as a reference though.
Keith

 

[amirm]

I follow Jeff/Soundstage from time to time because they use the NRC facilities to measure speakers. It is a very good augment to Stereophile reviews.

 

[Old Listener]

At WBF it is mostly about the cost of the item as its perceived value. There are folks in this world that "know" that cost relates to "the best". The audio companies pander to them with exorbitant pricing, well, as long as the ride lasts, they will go for it. It makes great business sense. However, there used to be a time when a company made something for the common everyday man and then made "enhanced" stuff, going on up the ladder, you know, good, better, best.

One time in a thread there, I was making a point with one of their biggest early contributors, MEP, and I was talking about two boxes, one costing 2K and the other 22K and how would you decide which one was better, and the answer came back, the more expensive one obviously was better.

And no Jeff says he is not sure that's the route to go but sound over cost is what matters to his new way of thinking......the very fact of what MEP did and what conclusion Jeff has come to just shows how off the rails so many folks are.

A product that does more, does better, or is unique enough could command a higher selling price than the "good" variety of course, and it should command more if it is better, but in many ways, better in the audio world is bling, as any EE student who paid attention in class can put forth an audio amp that competes with anything else out there as far as the industry standard specifications go.

A few weeks go, there was a long thread on WBF about a Ken Kessler editorial where he expressed dismay at price levels in high-end audio. I read through the thread thinking that test and measurement provides a way to understand what you are getting from products at different price levels. If you reject everything but sighted listening of your own and by those whose opinion you agree with, you open yourself to being a sucker for "more expensive is always better" sales pitches.

 

[Blumlein 88]

An older relative retired in the early 1990s. He started doing home windows to stay occupied and make a little spare cash. Retrofits mostly to put insulated windows in older homes or sometimes just a new modern set of windows. Such business is mostly in wealthier parts of town. Something of a luxury item to some extent. He got some jobs, but kept losing out to people charging more. So he did a follow up after such an episode. Went by and asked this couple why did he not get awarded the job, said they'll get fine work from who they picked as he knew the guy, but was trying to find out what he needed to do to get the work. The wife spoke up and said of the 4 estimates they took his was too low. He knew he was supplying the same brand windows as the other guys. She finally told him three of the estimates were pretty close and his was significantly lower. "You have to be cutting corners to do it that cheap. Maybe you can make it look right on the outside, but you have to be short-cutting it somewhere."

After pondering that he decided on the next few estimates to do his normal thing and then double it. He didn't get them all, but he started getting more work. In time it was more than he wanted. I told him it was simple, he needed to raise his prices more to slow it down some. Having been a hard working frugal man his whole life he actually felt guilty as it was. He more or less said he felt bad with his current pricing and wasn't going to 'cheat' people more just to make it easy on himself. He could just turn down jobs when needed. So there you have it, one luxury items, non-essentials, people are spending spare cash and the market moves people where it has to go. Some of course jump right in with glee to see how far it can go.

 

[Blumlein 88]

A few weeks go, there was a long thread on WBF about a Ken Kessler editorial where he expressed dismay at price levels in high-end audio. I read through the thread thinking that test and measurement provides a way to understand what you are getting from products at different price levels. If you reject everything but sighted listening of your own and by those whose opinion you agree with, you open yourself to being a sucker for "more expensive is always better" sales pitches.

A few months back I replied to a post where someone was looking for a good DAC near the $1500 price. I suggested one for $500 that would do what he wanted and is good. The person didn't think much of that. Named a $6k DAC one of his friends had and said you weren't going to get that sound for $500, or $1500, but he wanted as close as possible. Funny, the $6k DAC used the same DAC chips in dual differential like the $500 DAC which also was in dual differential. Both used related quality op-amps for the analog output, and both had nearly identical specs. Everybody knows you can't get $6000 sound for $500. Of course I was daft.

 

[RayDunzl]

It seems to me it's just us po' folks lamenting the price tags of the extra-shiny stuff.

Eventually the prices may rise to the pain level of the less po'. It would happen in stages. There would still be others even less po' that think it's ok.

Mr Resnick (WBF) has abandoned his MartinLogans (similar to but newer than mine at around $10k msrp when new) for a pair of Gryphon Pendragons - somewhere around $250k msrp.

"My wife and I planned a trip to Denmark for the purpose of auditioning the Gryphon Audio Designs Pendragon loudspeaker system."

Well, that says a lot right there. I don't even feel like driving across town to check something out.

"After a hot, wild affair one weekend last May at the T.H.E. Show in Irvine with the MBL 101E Mk. II, and despite amazing dates with the Neolith, the Arrakis and the Genesis 1.1, and a brief flirtation with the Analysis Audio Omega, the Pendragon is the first speaker in 28 years which would seduce me away from, and cause me to divorce, my beloved MartinLogan electrostatic hybrid loudspeakers."

He didn't seem to flinch. Probably got some "reviewer's accomodation".

But I don't think he's po' either. Way beyond my level of po'.

I looked up his Beverly Hills address once. Interesting house perched precariously over an abyss. Nothing like what the Clampett's had, though.

 

[Old Listener]

A few months back I replied to a post where someone was looking for a good DAC near the $1500 price. I suggested one for $500 that would do what he wanted and is good. The person didn't think much of that. Named a $6k DAC one of his friends had and said you weren't going to get that sound for $500, or $1500, but he wanted as close as possible. Funny, the $6k DAC used the same DAC chips in dual differential like the $500 DAC which also was in dual differential. Both used related quality op-amps for the analog output, and both had nearly identical specs. Everybody knows you can't get $6000 sound for $500. Of course I was daft.

Two fine stories. A bit depressing though.

 

[dallasjustice]

Jeff seems like a very good guy and made some excellent points. I think he's wrong about one thing. It seems like he's still repeating the price/SOTA fallacy. IMO, pretty much all of the manufacturers who offer mega expensive products are not SOTA. To me, price reflects much more about the manufacturer's assumptions concerning the number of customers they expect to have in the future. The lower that number gets, the higher the price gets. IOW, the cottage manufacturers have to "get one over" on all their few customers just to keep the doors open. Another hallmark of these cottage manufacturers is that their designs never fundamentally change. Look at Wilson, YG or Magico. Don't tell me things have changed much over the years. These companies are owned by the chief speaker designer. Would the owner fire himself and hire someone else to redesign their products?

The larger and more science/performance oriented manufacturers know they have a much larger customer base. They also have the luxury of focusing on performance. These companies DO replace engineers/designers and move in different directions. I find this a refreshing and a healthy sign for a business.

Also, the more legit manufacturers know they will sell so many thousands of speaker pairs. They know they'll need to charge no more than necessary to hit that big number. They can also spend much greater effort doing truly unique engineering.

All speaker manufacturers come down to people. The question is: who has the best people to design and engineer each speaker component and the entire design? One place to look is the AES journal. You can get a feel for how talented some of these engineers are by reading about their designs and ideas in a non-marketing and very technical journal. Another place is to simply review measurements in the context of what we now know about the listener preferences we all share based on established science.

 

[Sal1950]

somewhere around $250k msrp.

Your a little lite there Scrutinizer, site says MSRP $284,195.00, add 10% tax and you got, $312614.50
Shitte man, that's only a few dozen pazooza's. Think I'll be like Don and order enough for a 7.4.4 rig.

 

[RayDunzl]

Your a little lite there

Depends on the exchange rates. Those were likely Aussie Dollars in that advertisement. I ball-parked a conversion to USD.

A more recent post shows €220,000 for the system. Do the math, it's currently $250028.90, but changes all day long.

Not that it matters, of course.