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On the lookout for mixing headphones

solderdude

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be sure to fit the correct pads. It looks like Sonarworks uses the A pads and corrects based on that. Possible you cand also find corrections based on the B pads ?
2129470.png


analytical-vs-balanced-pads.png


Analytical pads, Balanced pads yes, the treble peak really is that bad !
 
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RaztoR

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be sure to fit the correct pads. It looks like Sonarworks uses the A pads and corrects based on that. Possible you cand also find corrections based on the B pads ?
2129470.png
Definitely, Sonarworks actually provides two different corrections for the DT 1990 with their software nowadays for each included ear pad type. But thank you for pointing that out none the less.
 

dasdoing

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wow, so SW goes for meassured flat. this is radicly diferent from Harman headphone curve and what any headphone producer is going for.
On the other hand I was asking myself a few days ago if this actualy does make more sense, since the meassurement devices allready have the ear simulated.
 

pluplog

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@RaztoR the S4X came in today. After an hour of listening, my 2 cents are:

1. They are incredibly light
2. The headband extension is smooth (no tugging required)
3. Pads are comfortable
4. Headband is really microphonic (when you move them), but once it's settle I don't hear anymore

I could see myself wearing these for hours on end (in terms of comfort). I won't give an opinion on sound, it's best to audition them for that. Hope you find a suitable headphone.
 

solderdude

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wow, so SW goes for meassured flat. this is radicly diferent from Harman headphone curve and what any headphone producer is going for.
On the other hand I was asking myself a few days ago if this actualy does make more sense, since the meassurement devices allready have the ear simulated.

Not entirely measured 'flat' because the measurements already contain their compensation.
This compensation is even higher than that of O-W btw and also much higher than mine.
I too have lows and treble compensations already in the curve.
This way a flat 'curve' is perceived 'flat' as well.
I don't think Sonarworks uses a simulated ear. Their measurements look way too much like mine (except with more apparent lack of sub-lows)
 

solderdude

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What I meant is when the measurement would show a horizontal line (in the case of Sonarworks) this sounds the same as flat monitors in a studio with a flat signal (say white noise or music) to the guys at Sonarworks.
What they did to determine their (lows) compensation curve is by switching between studio monitors (in a studio) and headphones.
Most likely at reference levels (say 80dB ?) and adjust EQ of the headphone so that it sounds the same as the studio speakers.
This thus also includes a bit of HRTF.
Then they measure the headphone on their (I assume home made ?) test rig which is very likely a flat-plate coupler.
The needed EQ for that headphone results in the EQ needed and overall bass compensation.
When you rinse and repeat this with several headphones you can see a pattern emerge which isolates the extra bass needed.

I have (also) used this calibration method with my rig, at least for the bass correction but not at 80dB but lower, at around 70dB as that's where I, and most other folks, listen to at longer listening sessions.

Now 80 and 70 dB doesn't sound like much difference but 80 is twice as loud. The reason why they use 80dB is obvious. Studio work.
What happens at these levels (O.W. probably also tests at these levels ?) is that the body also puts in 'information' for lower frequencies.
The higher the SPL and the lower the freq. the more the body 'listens' along.
So at 80dB you have 'added' input from the chest/nerves which is not present when listening to headphones. I believe Rin Choi called this 'the missing 6dB effect'. In any case to get the same auditory sensation when listening to music the bass needs to be turned up to get the same 'tonal balance picture'. Also O-W have this incorporated in the Harman curve because that's how people listen.
Sonarworks came up with an even higher 'correction' for the bass than O-W.

This is NOT the same as equal measured SPL with a microphones. What the plot from Sonarworks thus shows when the plot shows a 'horizontal line' (and where they EQ towards) thus is not the microphone signal but microphone signal including bass correction and some HRTF as well (for above 1kHz).

At 70dB average the 'chest thumb' effect is less taken into account by the brain and at that point a different 'correction' is needed.
When I was doing this I found the needed correction to be less than found by Sonarworks and O-W.
As most recordings are mastered at around 80dB average levels but people listening to music for longer periods to relax and enjoy I concluded that I had to take equal loudness contours into consideration.
Most likely I am not a basshead and found that when I listened at 70dB average I only needed to EQ for equal loudness contours.
When I did that the tonal balance was very similar to (nearfiled) speakers at around 70dB so my correction ended up slightly less than O-W and was not as steep/sudden as O-W & Sonarworks. Probably the FR of the body-nerves may have something to do with that and a 'threshold' for this ?
Not researched this, I don't care.
This is why the K371 measures just slightly warmer and without the (by compensation given) not existing dip at around 60Hz is not present in my measurements and is slightly north of 'neutral' to me in the lows
fr-stock.png


I hope you can see what the Sonarworks plots are showing (perceived flat to them compared to studio monitors) instead of the usual not compensated flat-plates. Most people think you take a UMIK stick it in a hole measures headphones. It doesn't, you need to calibrate those too and not using the supplied files as these are for different circumstances.
That's where my measurements are based on (not UMIK though but electret capsule that has been said to register sound very realistic.
It has drawbacks too, just like any other test rig, regardless of how expensive it is and whether or not a manufacturer bombarded it as 'reference'.
 
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bloodshoteyed

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@RaztoR the S4X came in today. After an hour of listening, my 2 cents are:

1. They are incredibly light
2. The headband extension is smooth (no tugging required)
3. Pads are comfortable
4. Headband is really microphonic (when you move them), but once it's settle I don't hear anymore

I could see myself wearing these for hours on end (in terms of comfort). I won't give an opinion on sound, it's best to audition them for that. Hope you find a suitable headphone.

i considered upgrading my S4 to the X, but i'm still not sure....
only thing bugging me, besides the old headband is it's size, i do have an oversized head and i max the headband out
plus, they are really more of an on-ear than an over-ear design (i prefer the later), that's something to consider, too
soundwise, probably one of my all-time fav dynamics
 

pluplog

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i considered upgrading my S4 to the X, but i'm still not sure....
only thing bugging me, besides the old headband is it's size, i do have an oversized head and i max the headband out
plus, they are really more of an on-ear than an over-ear design (i prefer the later), that's something to consider, too
soundwise, probably one of my all-time fav dynamics

I understood the X came about from various feedback from the original S4s but I'm not quite sure what the improvements were: the headband and earpads? I get what you mean with the over-ears... though it doesn't bug me as much. I have a LCD-2 and a newly acquired HEDDphone for late night listening sessions but during the day, the S4X just stays on my head because they're so light and doesn't sweat my ears.
 

bloodshoteyed

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yeah, headband, earpads and the fillament are new (i think that's where they tried getting rid of the dip between 8-9khz)
with the upgrade i think only the wooden cups and the metal coverplates remain the same
 
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RaztoR

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Update: The DT 1990 is the most comfortable headphone out of the three I've tried so far. Now I believe I know what people are referring to when they are talking about the Beyer "treble peak", interesting. The headphones certainly sounded different when calibrated using Sonarworks, more similar to the other headphones as one can imagine. Unfortunately, the DT 1990s still left me with headaches within 30-60 minutes of usage and had to be returned. I might get back to these and mod them if no better candidate is found. The next cans to try will likely to be the S4X if not the Focal Clear Professional. I'll keep everyone posted at some point during the next two weeks.
 

Robbo99999

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Hey there,
I've been spending the past month researching headphones with the purpose of replacing my K712 for studio work, mainly for mixing. For the past few days I've been trying out the ATH R70x headphones from Audio-Technica. Unfortunately, the ear pads are clamping too hard around my ears, causing headaches and pain after a while. At the same time, the clamping effect has been reduced over time, but I am still on the fence as to whether or not I want to keep them as the K712 cans never gave me a similar discomfort. To be fair, I should try to soften the clamp by letting the cans be wrapped around a suitable object for a while and see if that helps.

With that said, I've been looking at headphones like the classical HD650, the Focal Elear, LCD-X, HIFIMAN Ananda, Aeon 2 among others. My main concern with the HD650 is the roll-off in the low end, along with its harmonic distortion seen in various measurements on the web. I contacted Sonarworks regarding the distortion on the HD650 cans, thinking that I am likely just paranoid about it and won't be influenced by it during mixing. As expected, I was recommended to give the HD650 a try and not worry about the distortion or alternatively look at the Focal Elears along with the Fostex TH610. While the Elear cans may not be ideal without calibration, keep in mind that I use Sonarworks in tandem with any headphones that I use.

I'd appreciate any insightful input or suggestions that anyone might have. However, before anyone suggests it: Monitors are not relevant under my current circumstances.

Thank you for your time.
I think whichever headphone you end up choosing that you should EQ them, I would EQ them using Oratory1990's EQ profiles which are done to Harman Curve. @Kouioui mentioned the K371 as being a very close fit & indeed it is, but it needs a little attention in the treble with EQ, but the bass is good with a great low extension. I think you gotta EQ whichever headphone you choose, I'd personally recommend the HD600 EQ'd with Oratory1990 profile, which is what I have, and for me they sound very similar to my Harman Curve EQ'd speakers (measured in my room) JBL 308p Mkii. A lot of how accurate EQ'd headphones are for you will depend on if your HRTF (head & ear shape) differs greatly from the average, as EQ's provided on the internet from eg Oratory1990 are based on measurements using an "average dummy head" so to speak.....however this is normally a lot closer to reality than the sometimes random and varied stock frequency responses of headphones. Have you been linked this site already: https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets

I'd advise you to pick a headphone at that link & EQ it from there.
 
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RaztoR

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Update: After trying out the Ollo HPS S4X, it became immediately apparent within ten minutes or less that the headphones were not ergonomically suitable for my head. I tried them for days and they gave me severe headaches every time. I returned them and decided to give the Focal Clears a try after everything said and done. So far, they're the most comfortable headphone I've tried among the groups, the DT 1990 comes second in terms of comfort. They're a bit heavy, but despite of that they've yet to give me anything beyond a mild ache as of yet. If this holds up, I will likely keep them.


I think whichever headphone you end up choosing that you should EQ them, I would EQ them using Oratory1990's EQ profiles which are done to Harman Curve.

I am familiar with Oratory1990 and his EQ profiles, I've examined them in the past. With that said, I am calibrating my headphones using Sonarworks which essentially gives me a sound signature that I am highly familiar with when it comes to mixing and mastering. Still, I am interested to try one of Oratory1990's profiles at some point. They might be preferable for recreational listening, or perhaps even studio work depending on a few variables; something for me to find out later. Thank you for the input.
 
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pluplog

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Update: After trying out the Ollo HPS S4X, it became immediately apparent within ten minutes or less that the headphones were not ergonomically suitable for my head. I tried them for days and they gave me severe headaches every time. I returned them and decided to give the Focal Clears a try after everything said and done. So far, they're the most comfortable headphone I've tried among the groups, the DT 1990 comes second in terms of comfort. They're a bit heavy, but despite of that they've yet to give me anything beyond a mild ache as of yet. If this holds up, I will likely keep them.

I guess with ergonomics it's really personal; sorry to hear the S4X was such a horrid experience. Hopefully the Clears will be a good tradeoff for your use case. Thanks for the update.
 
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RaztoR

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I guess with ergonomics it's really personal; sorry to hear the S4X was such a horrid experience. Hopefully the Clears will be a good tradeoff for your use case. Thanks for the update.

That it certainly is. While it is unfortunate that they did not fit on my head that well, I am grateful that I have the option to try many different pair of headphones without needing to buy them all in order to find a good compromise between ergonomics and sound.
 

dasdoing

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Update: After trying out the Ollo HPS S4X, it became immediately apparent within ten minutes or less that the headphones were not ergonomically suitable for my head. I tried them for days and they gave me severe headaches every time. I returned them and decided to give the Focal Clears a try after everything said and done. So far, they're the most comfortable headphone I've tried among the groups, the DT 1990 comes second in terms of comfort. They're a bit heavy, but despite of that they've yet to give me anything beyond a mild ache as of yet. If this holds up, I will likely keep them.




I am familiar with Oratory1990 and his EQ profiles, I've examined them in the past. With that said, I am calibrating my headphones using Sonarworks which essentially gives me a sound signature that I am highly familiar with when it comes to mixing and mastering. Still, I am interested to try one of Oratory1990's profiles at some point. They might be preferable for recreational listening, or perhaps even studio work depending on a few variables; something for me to find out later. Thank you for the input.

I don't know how your setup looks like, but since you aparently have comfort issues wearing headphones you might consider a extreme nearfield monitor setup as an alternative. in a, for example, 60cm stereo triangle you wont have to play them loud to get to reference level
 

dawgzone

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Update: After trying out the Ollo HPS S4X, it became immediately apparent within ten minutes or less that the headphones were not ergonomically suitable for my head. I tried them for days and they gave me severe headaches every time. I returned them and decided to give the Focal Clears a try after everything said and done. So far, they're the most comfortable headphone I've tried among the groups, the DT 1990 comes second in terms of comfort. They're a bit heavy, but despite of that they've yet to give me anything beyond a mild ache as of yet. If this holds up, I will likely keep them.

I'm going through a similar dilemma atm, did the Focal clears work out for you in the end?
 
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