On the lookout for mixing headphones

[RaztoR]

Hey there,
I've been spending the past month researching headphones with the purpose of replacing my K712 for studio work, mainly for mixing. For the past few days I've been trying out the ATH R70x headphones from Audio-Technica. Unfortunately, the ear pads are clamping too hard around my ears, causing headaches and pain after a while. At the same time, the clamping effect has been reduced over time, but I am still on the fence as to whether or not I want to keep them as the K712 cans never gave me a similar discomfort. To be fair, I should try to soften the clamp by letting the cans be wrapped around a suitable object for a while and see if that helps.

With that said, I've been looking at headphones like the classical HD650, the Focal Elear, LCD-X, HIFIMAN Ananda, Aeon 2 among others. My main concern with the HD650 is the roll-off in the low end, along with its harmonic distortion seen in various measurements on the web. I contacted Sonarworks regarding the distortion on the HD650 cans, thinking that I am likely just paranoid about it and won't be influenced by it during mixing. As expected, I was recommended to give the HD650 a try and not worry about the distortion or alternatively look at the Focal Elears along with the Fostex TH610. While the Elear cans may not be ideal without calibration, keep in mind that I use Sonarworks in tandem with any headphones that I use.

I'd appreciate any insightful input or suggestions that anyone might have. However, before anyone suggests it: Monitors are not relevant under my current circumstances.

Thank you for your time.

 

[AudioStudies]

Check this out: https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-sennheiser-hd6xx

I got them and like them, and supposedly they are an exact clone of the HD650 for a lot less money. I admit the bass isn't the most pronounced but it isn't non-existent either. If there is distortion, I sure don't hear it at the volume levels I listen at.

 

[RaztoR]

Check this out: https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-sennheiser-hd6xx

I got them and like them, and supposedly they are an exact clone of the HD650 for a lot less money. I admit the bass isn't the most pronounced but it isn't non-existent either. If there is distortion, I sure don't hear it at the volume levels I listen at.

I've been keeping my eye on those, but I appreciate the suggestion none the less. Unfortunately, since I live in Europe, the costs required to get them here (shipping, toll fee, VAT, etc) will arguably make them about as expensive, if not more so than the HD650s that you can find around here. For that reason, I am waiting for another EU drop (presuming there will be one, anytime soon).

 

[dfuller]

If it means anything, I quite like my HD650s for an alternate listening source from my Focal Shapes. They do need relatively ample power for much volume though so do keep that in mind.

 

[RaztoR]

If it means anything, I quite like my HD650s for an alternate listening source from my Focal Shapes. They do need pretty ample power though so do keep that in mind.

Certainly, that has not been overlooked. My RME interface should be more than adequate to run them on the listening levels I need. If not, there are plenty of amps here to take a look at.

What do you think about the low-end while using the HD650s? Do you use any calibration or correction profile while using the headphones? Thank you for your time.

 

[dfuller]

Certainly, that has not been overlooked. My RME interface should be more than adequate to run them on the listening levels I need. If not, there are plenty of amps here to take a look at.

What do you think about the low-end while using the HD650s? Do you use any calibration or correction profile while using the headphones? Thank you for your time.

I've corrected the low end with the DSP EQ on my ADI-2 Pro. Just a low shelf around 25hz.

 

[AudioStudies]

I've corrected the low end with the DSP EQ on my ADI-2 Pro. Just a low shelf around 25hz.

It would seem we own a lot of the same gear. I have Focal Shapes, the HD-6XX, and the RME ADI-2 FS DAC, so mine is the non-Pro version. In some of the reviews on this site, Amir when evaluating headphone amps, mentions his use of a HD-650, and I don't think he would be using them if the distortion were of any concern.

 

[solderdude]

What high distortion of the HD650 ?

 

[3125b]

The question, before discussing the virtues of any particular headphone, is:
Why do you want to replace your K712 - in what way do they not fit your needs, what sort of improvement are you after?
What DAC/amp are you using? What would your budget be?

 

[deafenears]

Neumann NDH 20 ?

 

[renaudrenaud]

For mixing ? AKG K361, but I guess it is not enough expansive.

 

[RaztoR]

It would seem we own a lot of the same gear. I have Focal Shapes, the HD-6XX, and the RME ADI-2 FS DAC, so mine is the non-Pro version. In some of the reviews on this site, Amir when evaluating headphone amps, mentions his use of a HD-650, and I don't think he would be using them if the distortion were of any concern.

That's a fair point. Like I mentioned, it is likely that I am simply being needlessly paranoid regarding the distortion of the HD650s.

What high distortion of the HD650 ?

Source: https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/reviews/sennheiser-hd650-review/#correction

The measured distortion varies across different reviewers, but Sonarworks are not the only ones that claim that the HD650s have >4% harmonic distortion in the low-end. Whether or not that is an issue in practicality is another thing entirely, though.

The question, before discussing the virtues of any particular headphone, is:
Why do you want to replace your K712 - in what way do they not fit your needs, what sort of improvement are you after?
What DAC/amp are you using? What would your budget be?

You're right, I should have clarified that from the beginning. Long story short? It's related to a dip in the frequency response in the upper-mids with my set of cans (I don't recall exactly where, somewhere in-between 3kHz - 8kHz) along with a not-so-great fit on my head. But they're less painful compared to the ATH-R70X. Other than that, it'd be great to improve the bass and sub-bass extension.

My main priority is to achieve the closest to a neutral sound as possible within the realm of headphones; possibly complimenting a headphone with a subpac as an experiment further down the lines. My main field of work has been in game development as a sound designer and composer. It is important that I will be able to translate the low-end to many different kinds of systems and not leave players fatigued or underwhelmed by the bass. There's a lot more to it than that, of course. But for the sake of keeping things streamlined, let's leave it at that for now.

I am using the RME Babyface Pro as my main interface. If I eventually need more juice than what the Babyface is capable of, I'll know where to look.

Idealistically speaking, I don't want to spend anything more than 1200 euro. I know I can find second-hand LCD-X:es, Focal Clears and new Elears for about 700 euro or less in Europe. The question is whether or not any of them are worth the price premium when compared to alternatives such as the HD650 for my needs (HD650 long-term durability issues?). Essentially: I want something that is on par with, or better than the K712 without the discomfort and the upper-mid dip.

Neumann NDH 20 ?

These headphones caught my interest earlier. At the same time, Sonarworks claims that they might be a bit bass-heavy with scooped upper-mids along with issues related to frequency response consistency between different listeners. Feel free to add any experiences or inputs here that I can take into account regarding these headphones.

I appreciate everyone for taking the time to respond to my inquiry. I decided to return the R70X earlier today. We'll see what I decide on, eventually. So far, I am leaning towards giving the HD650 a try.

 

[RaztoR]

Update: After a few days of trying out the HD650, it became obvious that it had to be returned as well due to severe head pain caused by the headband padding. Unless I do not find a better replacement in the next few weeks, I will not be looking into modifying the HD650s for better comfort. My search for a suitable headphone continues. Any constructive feedback would be much appreciated.

My main candidates, used in tandem with Sonarworks:
1. Focal Clear Professional (The Pro version due to the extra ear pads included compared to the non-Pro version - also cheaper around here)
2. Audeze LCD-X
3. Beyerdynamics DT1990 / DT1770
4. Ollo HPS S4X (?) - More input appreciated
5. ZMF Eikon (?) - More input appreciated
6. ZMF Auteur (?) - More input appreciated
7. Focal Elegia (?) - More input appreciated
8. Dan Clark Audio AEON 2 Closed
9. Neumann NDH 20

 

[pluplog]

Ollo has this trial available (30 days?); I just made an order couple of days ago for one... might be worth a try - audition and see if it's a fit and if not just pay the return cost I believe.

 

[RaztoR]

Ollo has this trial available (30 days?); I just made an order couple of days ago for one... might be worth a try - audition and see if it's a fit and if not just pay the return cost I believe.

I visited their website last night and made note of that deal as well. What do you intend to use them for? Feel free to let me know what you think about their performance later.

 

[pluplog]

@RaztoR I intended to use them for listening at home when I'm doing work; the leather pads on my LCD-2 makes for a bit of sweat when it's warm, I've read that these are comfortable, lighter and would make for a longer wear. I'll post back on how they wear when it comes.

 

[Jimbob54]

Hey there,
I've been spending the past month researching headphones with the purpose of replacing my K712 for studio work, mainly for mixing. For the past few days I've been trying out the ATH R70x headphones from Audio-Technica. Unfortunately, the ear pads are clamping too hard around my ears, causing headaches and pain after a while. At the same time, the clamping effect has been reduced over time, but I am still on the fence as to whether or not I want to keep them as the K712 cans never gave me a similar discomfort. To be fair, I should try to soften the clamp by letting the cans be wrapped around a suitable object for a while and see if that helps.

With that said, I've been looking at headphones like the classical HD650, the Focal Elear, LCD-X, HIFIMAN Ananda, Aeon 2 among others. My main concern with the HD650 is the roll-off in the low end, along with its harmonic distortion seen in various measurements on the web. I contacted Sonarworks regarding the distortion on the HD650 cans, thinking that I am likely just paranoid about it and won't be influenced by it during mixing. As expected, I was recommended to give the HD650 a try and not worry about the distortion or alternatively look at the Focal Elears along with the Fostex TH610. While the Elear cans may not be ideal without calibration, keep in mind that I use Sonarworks in tandem with any headphones that I use.

I'd appreciate any insightful input or suggestions that anyone might have. However, before anyone suggests it: Monitors are not relevant under my current circumstances.

Thank you for your time.

The R70 can be bent outwards (and inwards should you wish to tighten). A tiny bit of flex "out" at the apex of the metal band can cause considerable easing on the clamp.

Try and flex close to the apex, thumb and finger job. dont do it by grabbing the cups and using it like an exercise machine.

 

[Veri]

5. ZMF Eikon (?) - More input appreciated
6. ZMF Auteur (?) - More input appreciated

Wouldn't really consider ZMF headphones to be mixing/neutral monsters. Auteur is the most neutral tuned, but you'd need individual sonarworks calibration to get a true reference honestly. Pretty pricy at that, in total. I think sonarworks individual calibration in itself is really nice though, good experience with them.

 

[RaztoR]

The R70 can be bent outwards (and inwards should you wish to tighten). A tiny bit of flex "out" at the apex of the metal band can cause considerable easing on the clamp.

Try and flex close to the apex, thumb and finger job. dont do it by grabbing the cups and using it like an exercise machine.

I thought that might have been a possibility when I looked at the construction earlier. However, there was still another major issue that could not be resolved without swapping the ear pads: My ears were in contact with the drivers due to how relatively thin the pads are, causing redness and physical pain. Furthermore, since my trial period for the cans was about to end, I decided that I was better off returning them without testing out custom ear pads. With that said, I imagine that the suggestion could come in handy for other R70 X users that end up reading this thread. Thank you for your feedback.

Wouldn't really consider ZMF headphones to be mixing/neutral monsters. Auteur is the most neutral tuned, but you'd need individual sonarworks calibration to get a true reference honestly. Pretty pricy at that, in total. I think sonarworks individual calibration in itself is really nice though, good experience with them.

That's good to know. They are definitely on the pricier side which is why I am looking at other alternatives first. But they're on my list of considerations if I somehow are unable to find a suitable pair among the rest of the candidates. Since Sonarworks currently don't have an average preset for them, I was going to have them calibrated if I decided to get either of the pairs. Thank you for your time.

 

[Jimbob54]

I thought that might have been a possibility when I looked at the construction earlier. However, there was still another major issue that could not be resolved without swapping the ear pads: My ears were in contact with the drivers due to how relatively thin the pads are, causing redness and physical pain. Furthermore, since my trial period for the cans was about to end, I decided that I was better off returning them without testing out custom ear pads. With that said, I imagine that the suggestion could come in handy for any other R70 X user that end up reading this thread. Thank you for your feedback.



That's good to know. They are definitely on the pricier side which is why I am looking at other alternatives first. But they're on my list of considerations if I somehow are unable to find a suitable pair among the rest of the candidates. Since Sonarworks currently don't have an average preset for them, I was going to have them calibrated if I decided to get either of the pairs. Thank you for your time.

I wish I had read your OP in time- the Brainwavs Large (not XL) fit fine and have that extra depth. Inexpensive too (like, £20)

I only know this as I had a faff with my (larger but similar built) ATH W5000- they needed bending in and deeper pads. They take the Brainwavs XL.