Sounds completely "solved" to me, good choices!
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Omnidirectional speakers
- Thread starter oivavoi
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No doibt about that. Even before joining, I probably read or perused 100+ threads and many hundreds of posts. When I realized that it was not likely to get gutted for admitting the feed to my Benchmark amp was $10 Monoprice XLR cables, I knew it was good.
Oh boy..on the hot seat now…the signal chain was more than different amp..uh oh.. There was a lot of switching around here going on, but I did at least keep the front end the same when comparing the Duevel Enterprise to 3 other conventional forward firing speakers, thank goodness.
The signal chain before the AHB2 Benchmark was ELAC Discovery analog out routed through my Yamaha RX-A3060 pre-outs to an Emotiva UPA-2, so assuming the Yamaha did nothing to impact the analog pass through, we still have the different DAC in the equation. I did pull the Emotiva out and put the Benchmark directly in its place initially, but the Yamaha uses unbalanced RCA only and Benchmark only balanced XLR input. I had an XLR TO RCA cable, but for some reason, I was getting hum. Rory at Bencmark was not sure why, suggesting I try balanced XLR in and out, which forced me to use something else—this:
Second and current set-up: Eversolo DMP-A6 XLR out to AHB2, so we have different DACs in the signal chain.
Looks like it will be necessary to use the Eversolo unbalanced RCA outputs to the Emotiva, only leaving the variable of balanced vs unbalanced amp connections. I got sloppy—what is my punishment? I’m pretty old and there was a lot of switching around, so do I get just a warning for first offense?
I am decidedly NOT an amps sound different guy, and was shocked how much better the sound was with the Benchmark, but now that you called me on it, I may have egg on my face.
I agree 100%. Subjective reviews are suspect and must be approached with extreme caution, especially on some web review sites. I get that. In my defense, this was prior to becoming an ASR regular, and there really is not much here on the Planets. My “goal” was to find some regular Omni speakers with a low cost of entry to evaluate the Omni “sound”, mainly due to owning that portable “Peak 360” speaker, finding the Omni dispersion perfect for covering a wide area with fairly consistent sound since you are listing off axis most of the time. I used it constantly in my very large kitchen, just throwing it down in middle of work area. I had previously tried several other solutions using small pairs of conventional speakers that did not work once you moved further from the sweet spot. I never intended to use the Planets in the living room for primary stereo source listening. I was outside pool side on the deck and thought, hmmmm…Omnis out here might work really good in a maybe 70’ by 30’ listening area. It did, in spades, much better than pair of forward firing once you got too far from the sweet spot. The Enterprise may be the outdoor speakers next summer, but enjoying the heck out them in the living room for now.
I think whatever shortcomings they have, no forward firing speaker can do the things they can do in the scenarios above where you listen directly
to the side or any extreme off axis position of forward firing speakers. They may be the ultimate yard and garage speaker type. Living room where you are stationary in the conventional “sweet spot”, well, jury is still out.
I’m just starting on the other thread, so will study carefully. Should be fun.
Lets just make a quick clarification
I don't believe anyone here claims "all amps sound the same".
Just the opposite, many amps sound distinctively different, and there are easily measurable and explainable reasons for this. Mainly in how they react to the impedance's of both the source and the load can be cause for big non-linear reactions. Or some are purposefully voiced to sound in a particular way, more.
When folks try to discredit the objective approach, they use stupid extremist statements like that which are miles away from the reality.
I still don't understand why you are using the term "completely non-linear" to describe reflections that would have virtually the same spectral balance as the direct sound. What would be "completely non-linear" about them?
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I just checked and the Benchmark DAC3 that will be ordered tomorrow has both balanced and unbalanced outputs, so I will be able to compare Benchmark AHB2 and Emotiva amp, all other variables held equal. Even if no sonic difference, I have no regrets on the AHB2 as it was the amp recommended by Soundlab as best option for the Soundlabs heading my way after shipping challenge is solved. Those are a more difficult load, so amp could be a significant factor.
If not for already running the AHB2, I might have gone a different direction on the DAC. It’s sounding pretty darn good with just the internal DAC in the Eversolo DMP-A6 now in front of the Benchmark amp. The A6 was only temporarily borrowed (to use the balanced XLR output) from another Roon zone system, so still needed another DAC.
I’m usually pretty careful on tests, even if subjective ones, when doing A/B comparisons. I’ll be even more careful here..,
Keith_W
Master Contributor
@jim1274 now that you have had a taste of omnis, it's time for you to start saving for a pair of MBL's or hope that a pair appears second-hand at an affordable price 
You should do your best to go listen to them, they are truly remarkable speakers.
Come to think of it, I do have omni speakers at home ... only that most people here wouldn't think of them when they think of omnis. Ultimate Ears Boom bluetooth speakers ... maybe I should get another speaker and listen to them in stereo.
You should do your best to go listen to them, they are truly remarkable speakers.Come to think of it, I do have omni speakers at home ... only that most people here wouldn't think of them when they think of omnis. Ultimate Ears Boom bluetooth speakers ... maybe I should get another speaker and listen to them in stereo.
MarkS
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Amp listening tests have to be blind (of course!) and level matched (by voltage on a test tone, usually 1kHz, at the speaker terminals), if you want to be sure that you're not fooling yourself.
Nice example of the influence of what we see on what we (think we) hear:
@jim1274 now that you have had a taste of omnis, it's time for you to start saving for a pair of MBL's or hope that a pair appears second-hand at an affordable price
Come to think of it, I do have omni speakers at home ... only that most people here wouldn't think of them when they think of omnis. Ultimate Ears Boom bluetooth speakers ... maybe I should get another speaker and listen to them in stereo.
Hmmmm…you sure about that being Omni? I just looked at the product page and shows 2-2” drivers and 2 passive radiators. Could not find a detail on driver placement—set on opposite sides? Would that make it a dipole of sorts?
This is the Omni portable Bluetooth I have:
360 PEAK Music System By Level10 – soundmatters
soundmatters.com
That’s not possible, at least not easily unless I’m missing something. One could use something like a DPDT switch box that does not allow any momentary contact to alternate amps, but you could not volume match from one source unless amp has sensitivity control, correct? If I had 2 identical Roon endpoints in front of the amps, I could do it, I’m thinking, balancing volume in Roon volume control.
Easier to never again say amp X made an audible difference…
It’s kind of a moot point in my situation because whatever speaker I end up with in the main living room 2 channel setup will have a Benchmark DAC and amp in front of it.
MarkS
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Yes, input volume has to be adjusted seperately for each amp.
It's a pain, which is why hardly anyone bothers to do it.
But having participated in several such tests (long ago, when my hearing was much better), I personally don't believe anybody's claim of "amp A sounded better than amp B" if they didn't do it.
YMMV.
www.audiosciencereview.com
It's a pain, which is why hardly anyone bothers to do it.
But having participated in several such tests (long ago, when my hearing was much better), I personally don't believe anybody's claim of "amp A sounded better than amp B" if they didn't do it.
YMMV.
What to do about the ABX test?
Seems increased commentary in recent weeks about ABX tests. Much of it stemming from people who come to ASR to set us straight about trusting our ears. I do agree with some who have said that calls for ABX or it didn’t happen have become almost like a club to beat people over the head with, and...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Yes, input volume has to be adjusted seperately for each amp.
It's a pain, which is why hardly anyone bothers to do it.
But having participated in several such tests (long ago, when my hearing was much better), I personally don't believe anybody's claim of "amp A sounded better than amp B" if they didn't do it.
YMMV.
What to do about the ABX test?
Seems increased commentary in recent weeks about ABX tests. Much of it stemming from people who come to ASR to set us straight about trusting our ears. I do agree with some who have said that calls for ABX or it didn’t happen have become almost like a club to beat people over the head with, and...
If it was relevant to my equipment decision making, I would likely do it. Not sure if I even want to know if Emotiva and Benchmark sound the same after spending $3500…
For example. If you were to play a white noise tone out of a hypothetical omni speaker that was dead flat in 360 under anechoic conditions, put it in your room and measured the response at the MLP, what do you believe that resulting measured response would be?
In your example, the ungated in-room measurement will look like hash because the reflections will be arriving from many different directions, with many many different path lengths, and therefore with many many many different phase relationships at all the different wavelengths, as they combine at the microphone in-phase and out-of-phase and in semi-random phase.
This in-room ungated white noise measurement does not correspond to perception because the ear does not process sound the way a microphone does. A microphone sums all of the sound pressure present on its diaphragm, and the ear does not do this.
The ear can tell the difference between first-arrival sounds and reflections, assuming those reflections are spectrally close enough to be recognizable as such. Does a microphone do this? No. Can your eyes tell what is first-arrival sound and what are reflections by studying that ungated in-room hash-looking measurement? Of course not. Can the ears? Of course, and in real-time. Your ears are doing it right now.
The ears can also tell the arrival direction of a sound (at most wavelengths). A microphone cannot.
Let'st take a look at what sounds good to the ears in an unamplified live sound setting, like a good recital hall, looking at the time domain: We start with a clean first-arrival sound (easily supplied by unamplified voices and instruments); next is a time gap relatively free from strong reflections (this is why the seats in the front-and-center section sound better than the seats along the walls or in the back); and finally we have a spectrally-intact swell of reverberant energy coming from many directions and decaying smoothly. One of the results of "reflections done right" in a good recital hall is rich and engaging timbre; and another is a sense of envelopment; and as long as we don't sit too far back the clarity is superb... so obviously in this setting the reflections are not ruining the sound, but instead actually are enhancing it.
Imo these same attributes are desirable in the listening room, even if they are harder to achieve. I'm not saying omnidirectional speakers are the only, or necessarily even the best, way to get there. But when done right, omnis at least get the reflection field spectrally correct, which contributes to natural-sounding timbre at home as in the recital hall. And imo natural timbre isn't the only thing "reflections done right" can contribute to home audio.
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Isn't that also an argument against any speaker with wide, even dispersion (you know, the ones that we all celebrate on ASR)?
My experience with the Duevel Enterpise has been that the timbre has been natural-sounding, as good as the conventional “box” speakers in the same room and front end. Another thing I noticed was the low level detail was quite good, something that was not expected. In fact it was so good, I made the wife come out and listen to a song she has heard scores of times. I need to preface this with, so much switching going on here, that could possibly be due to a high bitrate Qobuz or Tidal stream and switching to the Benchmark amp, but doesn’t change the bottom line. I simply said “listen, say nothing until the end and tell me if you noticed anything “different” or stood out”. She is no audiophile and doesn’t know the meaning of timbe. She said “I heard things not heard before—is this a different version of the song?” There were several things she noted like she could hear Freddie breathing into the mic at times and several other things”. I’m not trying to make a case at all for the Enterprise, just noting they are also capable of resolving details well. I’m going to bring some good monitor type speakers back out and make some comparison notes on different characteristics between the two. I’m still searching for a significant flaw in Omni vs conventional box speakers to at least understand the trade-offs. I’m going to give them some hard scrutiny. None of the “they just sound good” BS. When I am comparing gear, I usually have more sets of ears to get opinions, but winter and no regular visitors.
Leaving all that aside and going back to your question on non-linear reflection lets just take a simple case.
One sound leaves the speaker and reflects off a hard window surface on the left side and then reaches your ear.
That same sound leaves the speaker and reflects off the soft surface of the couch under that window, then reaching your ear.
Will the two have the same spectral balance or be non-linear both to each other and to the source?
There is also the fact that I don't listen to classical music and have no interest into turning my listening room into an approximation of my favorite hall. That's also what Floyd Toole does, along with upsampling everything to various surround
codec in further attempt to recreate a concert hall environment.
My music, except for the few live recordings, are created in the studio and if I wanted to recreate anything it would be an approximation of the recording studio where the engineers sat while mixing. For many years my main listening interests have
involved Quad, 5.1, and now Atmos and the other immersive technology. We live in totally different worlds with different goals.
Yes, sort of, but there are extremes and moderation in all things.
I've always found omnidirectional speakers to be an extreme too far.
The tightest most focused images I've ever experienced came from horns that beam like a laser.
Yes the best imaging result is head in a vise like at the MLP, but inside that vise, the focus was incredible.
Try listening to some Q sound processed CD's like Stings - Soul Cages or Roger Waters - Amused To Death.
The immersive qualities for a 2ch recording can be startling if the system focus well.
Anecdotally I agree with you about head in a vice imaging (I own Sanders Electrostats). But I disagree that omnis are an extreme too far - one of the best systems I’ve ever heard is an MBL system.
I guess I’m wondering what the science (rather than the anecdotes) has to say about omnis?
Now you're talking about room acoustics. That's a related, but different, issue. Slap-echo is undesirable, and so is significantly non-uniform absorption.
Agreed, that's impractical. None of us have a big enough room or enough money to turn our listening space into an approximation of our favorite concert hall. Fortunately, we don't have to: The venue spatial cues are already on the recording! All we need do is suppress the "small room signature" of our playback rooms, while facilitating the presentation of the venue spatial cues (which are already on the recording).
Few of us have the money to replicate the acoustics of a recording studio control room, but if you are able to do so, more power to you.
Imo there are more real-world-affordable approaches to minimizing the small-room-signature of the playback room while effectively presenting the venue spatial cues which are already on the recording, whether they be real or engineered or both. But they call for speakers that do a better job of creating a spectrally-correct reflection field than monopole speakers generally do.
This has generally been my experience too, with the notable (and memorable) exceptions being when the room was large enough to push the first horizontal-plane reflections fairly far back in time. In such cases the long reflection path lengths (relative to the direct path length) also raised the direct-to-reverberant sound ratio at the listening position, which imo is often too low with omnis in small-to-medium size rooms.
I don't listen to classical either…. I don’t find the Omni to create sound like a hall. I do notice a wide and deep soundstage, and even well of axis of the “sweet spot” it sounds about the same.
This reminds of another aspect I’ve been meaning to mention: i have a full ATMOS 11.1 rig in the room, and a large collection of multichannel hires SACD/DVD-Audio/Bluray Audio discs. While some are well done and quite enjoyable, many are mixed to just be spectacular Sonics and effects, for lack of a better term. Having a guitar or vocal or whatever bouncing from fronts to surrounds gets tiring pretty fast, at least to me. Or ones that put most of the band in the front them one instrument on the side surrounds. The ones that add some ambience or effects subtly in the other surround channels are the ones I find more listenable. This was put together for home theater, and a good 11.X ATMOS soundtrack is beyond description until one experiences. When playing just stereo on the fronts, capable towers, I never much enjoyed it and probably have played the Omnis 10 times as much in a week than on stereo material than the AV towers in 10 years. I have a friend who thinks I’ve lost it and playing all 5 left and all 5 right blasting stereo is the way to go. I disagree.
You mean quadrophonc 4 channel discs when you say “Q sound processed”? No—can’t be—you said CD. Just to say again, there are a lot of discrete multichannel discs I like a lot, but for stereo only recordings, I’m Omni all day.
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