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Omnidirectional speakers
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MarkS
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No, I've never heard MBL at all.
On the notion of preference studies: I don't care what sounds better to other people, I only care about what sounds better to me.
No audio system (not even that amazing genelec control room) is capable of reproducing the precise sound field at each ear that a live event would produce, which is what I ideally want to get from my system. They all deviate tremendously, and along a multidimensional set of variables. The notion that every person on earth should have the exact same preferences for a particular set of deviations strikes me as absurd.
And, as Sal has pointed out, many audiophiles are not trying to reproduce the sound of a live acoustic performance, they are trying to reproduce the studio engineer's construction of an artificial soundstage that never existed in real life. That may well result in a different set of deviation preferences, even on average among all people.
In particular, studio-recorded vocals in which the singer's mouth is inches from the microphone sound very different than a live, unamplified singer in a hall, as in these performances:
My goal for my system is to get as close as possible to the unamplified singer in the hall. For judging that, the Harman-favored tracks like Fast Car are, to me, useless. Tracy Chapman has never sung to me with her mouth inches from my ear. I have no idea what it's supposed to sound like.
And more generally, at a live performance, I never hear the "pinpoint imaging" so beloved by so many audiophiles. When I hear that on a stereo (and I do), it sounds wrong. It's a deviation that I don't like. (Though, again, it's fine if we're going for the artificial studio-produced soundstage. But that's not what I'm going for.)
So: it's not "science" to tell me which set of deviations from ideal sounds best to me. That's just not a scientific question. Anyone who claims otherwise does not understand science.
Not long ago, I was wondering if what seemed to me an innocuous first ever forum post, to a long dormant thread at that, would even get more than a response or two…
This post from Keith hit home with mention of dipoles. I’ve been moving my Omnis different distances from the front wall, finding some readily audible differences in the soundfield and immersion. I had them fairly close to the front wall until I think maybe it was Duke who suggested moving several feet further back. Now running them several feet feet further back, not only did the front soundstage still seem huge, but I was taken aback and thinking “is something coming from my 11.1 side surrounds?” like it was a multichannel playback with low level surround, literally looking over to the side surround. That tweaking of the Omni distance from front wall created a lot more immersive sound. My initial response was, wow, this is even more stark a contrast to forward firing speakers.
The reference to dipole was because my side surrounds are dipoles, and when glancing over when sound appeared to be coming from there, it made the think that I need to pull them (Heil AMTs) up front and to see what soundstage and immersion is produced by a dipole. I actually got up and slid them back to pull up front in place of the Omnis, but paused and decided going further down the rabbit hole was not prudent..yet…
I’m rambling, but what I am leading to, is have I dismissed regular forward firing designs too quickly as incapable of creating a huge soundstage (and now even more immersion with proper placement) compared to an Omni?
The difference was so profound when doing a quick rotation of conventional speakers for comparison vs Omni, I just assumed different placement of forward firing could not possibly even approach the immersion?
I think what I was referring to was increase in the reverberant soundfield when moving the Omnis further from front wall and changing the front/rear distance ratio. I’m cautious now in using terms until making sure my understanding of the definition is correct.
Often times speaker placement is dictated by practical considerations, especially with unusually large speakers like my front towers on the 11.1 rig. Moving them well into the room for proper 2 channel placement is possible, but hardly a trivial job, also requiring a move back after every session. Their position relatively close to the front wall seems to be fine for 11.1 but definitely not for just stereo. That’s the beauty of a modest size speaker like the Duevels for a seperate 2 channel systmem—small enough to slide easily and hide out of the way when finished—maybe 30 seconds to slide and replace the brown covers that make them not even noticeable in the living room with dark paneling.
Even given all I have learned from this thread about Omni speakers, it made me better understand the critical importance of speaker placement within the room. I knew the basics for “box” speakers placement related to impact of early reflections, reflective and dampening characteristics of surfaces/furnishings and such, but now realize the gap between acceptable and optimal placement can be larger than previously realized. Don’t want to get rambling and too far off topic of Omnis, but the importance and challenge of reflections introduced with an Omni 360 degree radiation sharpened my thinking and made me realize ways to improve my placement outdoors and in my garage for both Omnis and conventional speakers.
This thread (and others) has been more than instructive. Most of my previous forum perusal was more focused on equipment reviews, but the real meat is digging deeper into the nuances of things like the speaker/room interaction and trade-offs. The equipment part is a lot easier—just bought a Benchmark AHB2 amp and DAC3 and considered that “solved” and checked off the list, no hand-wringing over whether I’m “leaving anything on the table”. If only speakers were this easy…
Have I mentioned yet today how great this forum is?
This “adaptation” was an important aspect I had only partially considered. Just to make sure, is this a proper interpretation example:
Outdoors, I was seeking a solution with pretty high SPL capability and good low end, so my solution for years was the biggest speaker I could lift and mount that had a good frequency range and could be mounted in a protected position up under a long overhang tight to the rear (house) wall. That provided bass reinforcement from wall and ceiling, but also created a lot of early reflections of the overhang (ceiling) given the horizontal speaker position. That did the sound no favors, easily noticing the differences compared to proper normal vertical placement, but over time, I “adapted” to the sound and didn’t really notice the flaws at some point.
That’s an important point too which is why, as much as possible I try to get others opinion. When I first got the first pair of Omnis (the smaller Planets) I tried them outside long before any indoor testing. There are a lot more friends over outside during summer pool season, so more ears to ask. I do that now too, but only have the wife to use now in winter. No need to ramble, but if X number of people all say A sounds better than B to them too, seems like one’s own biases are not a primary factor.
So don't sweat it too much. You are having a ball with omnis. Long may that continue! Even if it's a dream!My intention isn't to make you change your speakers, or to make you unhappy instead of happy with omnis...that would make me sad.
Yes, I am definitely having a ball. Maybe I will change my speakers when it is all said and done. I’m very open minded and now am focusing on using other speaker types in place of the Omnis to try to find the flaws and trade-offs. I have not had this much fun since doing a marathon in 1984 with a friend, listening to every recommended speaker in “The Sensible Sound” magazine with a dealer in the Chicago area. Don’t recall exact number, but at least a dozen different brand speakers between about half dozen dealers. It’s a lot easier to rotate ones in the living room, plus same room acoustics is WAY more useful.
Oh, I know what a rabbit-hole is, that’s for sure. This Omni one is as treacherous as they come…
That’s the best part of ASR. Just saying X sounds better than Y is gonna get you some hard questioning and challenge, even a lot worse if you aren’t careful.
Newman
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I'm not sure I follow MarkS line of thought on this (or how he interprets Floyds) ?
AFAIK, I'm not aware of any label that takes their 2ch masters, upmixes it to multich and then sells it as a true multich release?
The (most) correct way to do this either for classical using Logic7, or using one of the modern DolbyD, DTS-X or Auro (for rock) and choosing which of them offers the best results with any particular source music, not to mention the fact that all of them offers some various tuning options with which to experiment.
Hi, did your listening position stay the same? in other words, what happened to listening distance when you brought the speakers away from the wall behind them, did it shrink? I'm asking since you didn't mention listening position, which is equally important as speaker position.
I've found sound changes a lot just by moving listening position closer to speakers. Even though speakers are close to wall behind them, the apparent sound changes dramatically. just by moving closer, while speakers stay put.
this quote from my post #244 I think partially answers that:
“
This post from Keith hit home with mention of dipoles. I’ve been moving my Omnis different distances from the front wall, finding some readily audible differences in the soundfield and immersion. I had them fairly close to the front wall until I think maybe it was Duke who suggested moving several feet further back. Now running them several feet feet further back, not only did the front soundstage still seem huge, but I was taken aback and thinking “is something coming from my 11.1 side surrounds?” like it was a multichannel playback with low level surround, literally looking over to the side surround. That tweaking of the Omni distance from front wall created a lot more immersive sound. My initial response was, wow, this is even more stark a contrast to forward firing speakers.
The reference to dipole was because my side surrounds are dipoles, and when glancing over when sound appeared to be coming from there, it made the think that I need to pull them (Heil AMTs) up front and to see what soundstage and immersion is produced by a dipole. I actually got up and slid them back to pull up front in place of the Omnis, but paused and decided going further down the rabbit hole was not prudent..yet…”
I’m still experimenting with placement.
I took a Quick Look at your link then did a forum search and found no mention of these—“no results found”. Have you heard them or just mentioned in context of their claimed “room filling sound” from “signature bipolar arrays”?
Duh—i quoted myself on myself. Can I get a “senior moment” partial pass?
Yes, I definitely noticed differences by changing listener to speaker distance at each speaker to rear wall test position tried. Since my final listening position is locked in (the couch), my position “tuning” was done moving speakers front to back and holding listening position fixed other than getting off the couch a few times to move closer to hear impact.
I just happened to see a mention in https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...h-active-bass-help-needed.51120/#post-1840564
The user has some freedom in choosing the rear sound - either all or half))
Of course all deftechs are bipolar, not true omni.
Hi, yeah keeping listening position static and bringing speakers closer effectively reduces listening distance, which changes angle and pathlength toward all first (specular) reflections on all boundaries, including floor and ceiling.
Please do not take this as critizisim, I just wanted to point out that change in sound was not likely just from wall behind speakers, but because all early reflections changed. In general, direct/reflected sound ratio got higher, which gets higher also by increasing speaker DI
Anyway, keep on experimenting, trying various positioning is fun time with the hobby and can make big difference in sound. Also, can improve listening skills, which should help get better sound from a system as well. I encourage doing listening experiments by changing listening distance as well, which allows kind of realtime adjustment of early reflections. Have fun!
MarkS
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I was ragging on Newman for quoting Toole in saying that omnis are "sound effects generators", as if this is necessarily a bad thing, when Toole is on record as liking upmixing of 2-ch classical recordings to multi-channel, which is equally a "sound effects generator" (as I'm sure Toole would agree).
No, the labels don't do it, the end user does it at home.
I've never heard a multi-channel rig used in this way, but I'm quite sure Floyd Toole is capable of making his sound very good. For myself, I'm happy with my current conventional front-firing speakers in a 2.1 system, just as I was happy with my previous bipolar speakers in a 2.0 system.
I attend a lot of live classical performances, and these systems sound, to me, close enough to the real thing to make me not want to bother with further enhancements via multichannel, even if they would achieve greater technical perfection.
It is a bad thing when you can't shut it off (as in omni speakers)
Done with some manner of DSP like Floyd and I do is fine IMO.
Your call, but your missing out on a whole world of other options in surround sound beside a bunch of concert hall like reverb.
Good immersive recordings are way more than just that.
Just ordered a pair. For only $500, what the heck. Can’t do “soundstage and immersion” or whatever tests without lab supplies, correct?
Hi, yeah keeping listening position static and bringing speakers closer effectively reduces listening distance, which changes angle and pathlength toward all first (specular) reflections on all boundaries, including floor and ceiling.
Please do not take this as critizisim, I just wanted to point out that change in sound was not likely just from wall behind speakers, but because all early reflections changed. In general, direct/reflected sound ratio got higher, which gets higher also by increasing speaker DI
Anyway, keep on experimenting, trying various positioning is fun time with the hobby and can make big difference in sound. Also, can improve listening skills, which should help get better sound from a system as well. I encourage doing listening experiments by changing listening distance as well, which allows kind of realtime adjustment of early reflections. Have fun!
Moving them further from the front wall and closer to the listening position, made a big difference as noted previously. Today, when I just quickly pulled speakers out and returned to an earlier position closer to front wall/larger distance to listener, they sounded a little flat and off. When I leaned forward to stand up, could hear sound change in the couple feet closer as I got up.
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