omnidirectional loudspeakers = best design available

[Hear Here]

I sold them a while back, trimming away the number of loudspeakers I own the time, and in order to help afford purchase my Joseph Audio speakers.



Wow, that certainly is an entirely different type of room than my own. Unless you are willing or able to use room treatment, I don’t know if the experience of my room could translate at all in being informative for you.

The best I can give you, that I have access to, is this old architectural floorplan for my room. The room is about 15 feet deep from the screen wall to the back of the bay windows. And about 13 feet wide. Ceiling is about 9 feet tall IIRC.

View attachment 435096

Pictured above are the Home Theatre L/C/R speakers flanking the projection screen. Depiction of my floorstanding two channel speakers is absent.

The MBLs were set up pretty much where the floor standing speakers appear in the photos I’ve already posted. There was a certain lack of flexibility because the right channel speaker has to end up in a position where it does not block the room entrance. That’s why you see my right floor speaker pulled close-up to the edge of my sofa.
I do have some leeway in that regard, but I also have some leeway with my sofa, which can be adjusted back-and-forth several feet.

But even within such parameters, it was very easy to dial in the MBL’s. Basically pretty much every speaker tends to sound good in my room in similar positions.

I hope that helps.

I've just added to my previous post - From the floor plan of my room, I'm sure you can appreciate my interest in omnis for this room! They are really the most suitable for this room, though I'd be concerned by the reflections from windows.

The horns don't need tons of room treatment. When I first moved in, the acoustics were terrible, but carpets, curtains (lightweight and never closed) and more soft furnishings have rendered the room pretty good without any artificial treatment - but probably only with horns!

 

[MattHooper]

I've just added to my previous post - From the floor plan of my room, I'm sure you can appreciate my interest in omnis for this room! They are really the most suitable for this room, though I'd be concerned by the reflections from windows.

The horns don't need tons of room treatment. When I first moved in, the acoustics were terrible, but carpets, curtains (lightweight and never closed) and more soft furnishings have rendered the room pretty good without any artificial treatment - but probably only with horns!

That’s such an incredible room!

I seem to remember one of my MBL auditions was at a dealer that was a fairly large room and windows along one side. They were in the front portion of their store as I remember.
That might be the room in which I heard a weird resonance in the sound. But I’m not 100% sure. I’ve also heard MBL’s and other large rooms, at shows for instance, and I remember being very impressed.

Perhaps they would sound fantastic in your room. I myself have no idea. The two places I happen to have heard MBL’s sound best where in rooms that I think aren’t supposed to be grate for omnis - smaller rooms (my own and at another reviewers place). But again, that was with flexibility and some treatment for the room.

 

[EJ3]

I didn't spot the MBL omnis in your photos. A floor plan for me is essential in seeing what the room issues may be.

You asked for others to send details of their rooms - here's mine. No AV / HT - 2-channel only.

PS - From the floor plan, I'm sure you can appreciate my interest in omnis for this room! They are really the most suitable for this room, though I'd be concerned by the reflections from windows. The horns don't need tons of room treatment. When I first moved in, the acoustics were terrible, but carpets, curtains (lightweight and never closed) and more soft furnishings have rendered the room pretty good without any artificial treatment - but probably only with horns!

View attachment 435091

The first sound to reach you is so much stronger than the reflective sound that comes a bit latter that the new first sound is drastically stronger than the delay from the previous sound being reflected back. Thought through very well. An old & ingenious tactic in very live rooms.

 

[Digital_Thor]

Heard the John Watkinson and thought they did quite well... Better than MBL - IMO.

Legend Precision Sound Reproducers

Legend Precision Sound Reproducers

www.legendloudspeakers.com

 

[Newman]

From the floor plan of my room, I'm sure you can appreciate my interest in omnis for this room! They are really the most suitable for this room, though I'd be concerned by the reflections from windows.

I was thinking more the opposite, unless you mean that you could be anywhere in the room and get some direct sound with omnis in the middle of the room. But in terms of great sound at the main listening position....no thanks!

If your amps have the fairly common ability to switch between two sets of speakers, you could put a pair of less pricey conventional speakers back-to-back with your horns, and use the 'Speaker1/Speaker2/Speaker1+2' switch as required.

cheers

 

[Keith_W]

I've just added to my previous post - From the floor plan of my room, I'm sure you can appreciate my interest in omnis for this room! They are really the most suitable for this room, though I'd be concerned by the reflections from windows.

I don't understand it, but omnis work. They give great immersion and great imaging. I have only heard omnis in large rooms though. The smallest room was in a hi-fi dealer in Singapore where the walls were treated.

Perhaps with a room like yours, a dipole might work. The problem with dipoles is that they tend to beam, especially panel speakers. Something like a Linkwitz LX521 might work better. It's not an omni, but it's affordable and very good.

The horns don't need tons of room treatment. When I first moved in, the acoustics were terrible, but carpets, curtains (lightweight and never closed) and more soft furnishings have rendered the room pretty good without any artificial treatment - but probably only with horns!

You are right to be concerned about acoustics with a room like yours. You don't pay millions to get a killer view like that only to cover it up with acoustic treatment!

The difference between omni and horn is that much more energy is thrown into room reverberation, so the critical distance is shorter, and the DRR (direct to reflected ratio) is lower. You are hearing more of the room's reverberant field . With omnis, that is a feature, not a bug. Things like DRR and where you sit with regards to the crit distance depends on preference and application (casual listening vs. studio) so YMMV. Omnis are unquestionably the superior choice if you want to listen to music in your kitchen. Whether it is superior to horns at the main listening position - don't know.

 

[Newman]

You are hearing more of the room's reverberant field . With omnis, that is a feature, not a bug.

I honestly don't think that deliberately designing a bug into a product makes it a feature.

Nor does boasting about it in the product literature.

 

[EJ3]

I honestly don't think that deliberately designing a bug into a product makes it a feature.

Nor does boasting about it in the product literature.

Some people like bugs. And some eat them. Just because you (and I) don't does not make it wrong. Just different.

 

[Newman]

Ah, so many other audio boards for you to get likes on, where they are dying to hear that way of looking at sound reproduction.

 

[Hear Here]

I was thinking more the opposite, unless you mean that you could be anywhere in the room and get some direct sound with omnis in the middle of the room. But in terms of great sound at the main listening position....no thanks!

If your amps have the fairly common ability to switch between two sets of speakers, you could put a pair of less pricey conventional speakers back-to-back with your horns, and use the 'Speaker1/Speaker2/Speaker1+2' switch as required.

cheers

I was trying to say that omnis would probably not be ideal in my room, so I think we are in agreement. By contrast horns have proved successful, despite their small sweet spot.

I have considered a second pair of speakers, but on reflection perhaps it's better to have less attention-grabbing music while we are in the dining area. It would probably discourage conversation!

Perhaps with a room like yours, a dipole might work. The problem with dipoles is that they tend to beam, especially panel speakers. Something like a Linkwitz LX521 might work better. It's not an omni, but it's affordable and very good.

I am very content with the TYPE of speaker I currently use - horns. They suit the room for reasons described in earlier posts, despite their small sweet spot. I've had electrostatics here (Quad and Martin Logan) but they were less satisfactory, specially the MLs. I'm not planning on switching from horns, at least as long as I'm staying put in this flat! I think the TYPE of speakers is largely down to the characteristics of the room and, choosing the appropriate type in the first place can be a major step towards avoiding the need for artificial room treatment or "DSP room correction". It never will correct the room of course.

 

[Heinrich]

I am very content with the TYPE of speaker I currently use - horns.

Most "horns" used in domestic environments show a wider radiation profile like 90x60. That's not too far from Genelec's, Neumann's mixing monitors. Did you ever think of adding speakers to fill the room with ambience?

If my recollection serves me right, some decades back when surround wasn't around yet, up-tier receivers provided the option to mix in artificial reverberation. It was digitally calculated and often sent to extra speakers at the sides / rear. "Cathedral" or "club" and such. I never was fond of the effect, but mostly because I like recorded sound playback dry, and being recorded dry to begin with.

 

[MattHooper]

I honestly don't think that deliberately designing a bug into a product makes it a feature.

If you continue to think of it as a bug you’ll never understand the feature.

Ah, so many other audio boards for you to get likes on, where they are dying to hear that way of looking at sound reproduction.

If you are referencing accuracy in sound reproduction - that is reproducing the recorded signal accurately - then I hope you don’t endorse alterations of the signal, such as upmixing stereo to surround, or ever altering the balance of a recording via eq or tone controls. Because then it’s about listener satisfaction, not strictly accuracy.

But if you do endorse such fiddling, where the listener’s satisfaction is ultimately the deciding factor, then you’d have no grounds to be wagging any fingers at others for finding the spaciousness of an omni to be pleasurable.

Audiophile virtue signalling is always vulnerable to such hypocrisy.

 

[MKR]

Seems like the perfect application for a variable directivity cardioid

 

[Heinrich]

I honestly don't think that deliberately designing a bug into a product makes it a feature.

Nor does boasting about it in the product literature.

Two versions of "omni" exsist. Good and bad implementations, and a third, that quasi omni with extra speakers - derived from the good.

Some people like to listen to dry recordings, from the microphone to the playback, me for instance. And I do not crave for expansive stereo effects. I like it ping-pong with a bit of background. I do not like illusions, it seems.

Some like to replace expansive, overly fragile stereo effects with their listening room's reverberation. Good implementations provide this without too much colorations or other disturbances..

Bad implementations, positioning dependend, introduce nasty side effects in frequency response, steady localization etc.

The third, extra speakers aka "upmixing", would provide more reverberation, but need to be designed for the task, signal forming included.

You're right, the effect destroys some of the imagined virtues of modern digital recordings. Some folks crave for super-duper-stereo illusion (?!) as the singled out hallmark of excellence. Frankly, I couldn't care less.

 

[MattHooper]

Some people like to listen to dry recordings, from the microphone to the playback, me for instance. And I do not crave for expansive stereo effects. I like it ping-pong with a bit of background. I do not like illusions, it seems.

I actually don’t mind dry recordings at all.
I consider the recording style to be part of the entertainment of listening to different tracks on a good system. One of my favourite genres, Library Music, comprises, not just an incredibly wide range of moods and genres, but an incredibly wide range of recording techniques that are often completely wacky.
On the same record one track might be a huge lushly recorded big band, and the next track we have the drums panned way to the back left in the distance like they’ve been recorded in a tiny echoey closet, with some other dry effect coming out of the other channel. And I love that too.

So the last thing I want is something that homogenizes away such differences in recordings. I wouldn’t have kept my own MBLs as long as I did if I found they homogenized recordings - in fact, I found them highly revealing of the nature of recordings. That was part of the joy.

Some like to replace expansive, overly fragile stereo effects with their listening room's reverberation. Good implementations provide this without too much colorations or other disturbances..

What I found with the MBLs is that if a recording was really dry, that’s just how it sounded. So for instance a super dry recording of a vocal centred between the speakers. It’s not like the room reflections were perceived as “ extra reverb added to the track.” That vocal would be just as dry sounding (or if it had reverb just as a reverby) as on my conventional speakers.
It would simply sound just that much more real and dimensional. It’s not like on the Omni images occurred in different points of the soundstage. The imaging that was in the track was there in the reproduction through the omnies. As were all the other production elements. I simply found that the image is themselves felt more free of the since they were coming from any speakers, and that they had a greater sense of fully developed three dimensionality.

 

[kma100]

Seems like the perfect application for a variable directivity cardioid

If only something like that existed ;-)

 

[MKR]

If only something like that existed ;-)

If only

 

[watchnerd]

ok, gonna play devils advocate while I go make popcorn for the rest of you guys to hash it out while I watch - Maybe no one uses omnis for mastering but maybe they should? I read somewhere recently that mastering speakers are often not very good. The idea being that is what most people have is not very good speakers so they master recordings to sound good on crappy speakers and it works well for the intended audience. I am not sure I buy into that notion but there may be an element of truth in it. Mastering with a set of good omnis might give a wider sound stage in the finished product and better imaging on the mixed down recording. But I am guessing...never done that or tried to do that. time for that popcorn now.

Some recording engineers for pop music do sometimes use weird things like mediocre bookshelf speakers or even cars for mastering.

But that's probably less common than using pretty decent powered monitors.

As for omnis, I don't know anybody who does that, and the impact on the mix would be *waaaay* bigger than the difference between a ho-hum normal speaker and a really good one.

So if played back on non-omni speakers (most of the world), it would sound weird.