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omnidirectional loudspeakers = best design available

MattHooper

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Agreed.

I think that one of the benefits of minimizing the discrepancy between the direct and reverberant sound is an effective reduction in the noise floor.

That's an interesting idea.

On one hand, I have found that for most speakers I've owned the more room reflections the more "live" the sound, but the more hashy it becomes.
Subjectively a sort of scrim of whitening hash seems to accompany everything. This could of course me the particular sound of my room under certain conditions. (However, as I've said, I have good flexibility in my room in terms of making it sound more live or more dead).

On the other hand, one of the distinctive characteristics I found with my MBLs, subjectively, was a "super low noise floor" sensation. They sounded very free of hash, and the low level sonic information, e.g. even just the finger padding of someone playing a classical guitar lightly, seemed more easily heard and more natural than I have heard anywhere else. That's part of what sounded so convincing with my MBLs, it didn't *sound* hyped where upper frequency transients have exaggerated clarity. Rather it was more like someone just playing a guitar in front of me and I could simply choose to listen down in to as much subtle detail as I cared to.

Dang, I'm starting to miss my MBLs now!
 

richard12511

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That's an interesting idea.

On one hand, I have found that for most speakers I've owned the more room reflections the more "live" the sound, but the more hashy it becomes.
Subjectively a sort of scrim of whitening hash seems to accompany everything. This could of course me the particular sound of my room under certain conditions. (However, as I've said, I have good flexibility in my room in terms of making it sound more live or more dead).

On the other hand, one of the distinctive characteristics I found with my MBLs, subjectively, was a "super low noise floor" sensation. They sounded very free of hash, and the low level sonic information, e.g. even just the finger padding of someone playing a classical guitar lightly, seemed more easily heard and more natural than I have heard anywhere else. That's part of what sounded so convincing with my MBLs, it didn't *sound* hyped where upper frequency transients have exaggerated clarity. Rather it was more like someone just playing a guitar in front of me and I could simply choose to listen down in to as much subtle detail as I cared to.

Dang, I'm starting to miss my MBLs now!

What do you like more about your current speakers?
 

MattHooper

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What do you like more about your current speakers?

I don't like everything better about my current speakers, but as I find I like different aspects of speakers I keep a few around. I still have my
Thiel 2.7 speakers but had become smitten with Joseph Audio speakers and the only way to afford them was to sell the MBLs. I figured over 10 years with the MBLs was a good run.

One of the main things is simply the lower frequency response of the two floor standing speakers (Thiel 2.7/Joseph Audio Perspectives). It allows them to sound bigger and richer than the MBLs. (I had MBL 121 stand mounted speakers). The Thiels to me are the most rich and full sounding from top to bottom, voices, sax, anything just sounds nice and full-bodied. The Joseph speakers strike me as more MBL-like in their sound, amazingly similar in fact in their clarity, beauty of instrumental tone, and boxless/huge soundstaging. So they gave me enough of the soundstaging imaging goodies l like, but with more grunt and fun. Though nothing truly goes as far as the MBLS in terms of a magic act of instruments "just appearing" around the speakers.

Of course I could have just added subs to the MBLs and tried that. But I'm not much of a subwoofer guy. Even in normal rooms they are a hassle to set up right, add more wiring and for me impact aesthetics. In my room they are even more of a hassle since they have to share a room already filled with a home theater set up taking up space, and also the wiring would have to be run through floors to the source room. That's why I have a pair of subs/crossover sitting around forever that I've never hooked up :)

But those MBLs were seriously uncanny - at times almost effortless, with eyes closed, to imagine I'm listening to a live voice or performance.
 

Duke

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On the other hand, one of the distinctive characteristics I found with my MBLs, subjectively, was a "super low noise floor" sensation. They sounded very free of hash, and the low level sonic information, e.g. even just the finger padding of someone playing a classical guitar lightly, seemed more easily heard and more natural than I have heard anywhere else. That's part of what sounded so convincing with my MBLs, it didn't *sound* hyped where upper frequency transients have exaggerated clarity. Rather it was more like someone just playing a guitar in front of me and I could simply choose to listen down in to as much subtle detail as I cared to.

That description mirrors my impression of the SoundLab fullrange electrostats (which *disclaimer* I became a dealer for). Obviously they're not omnis, but their curved geometry results in extremely uniform coverage within the width of the radiation pattern (typically either 45 or 90 degrees) both front and back, resulting in a very high spectral similarity between the direct and reflected sound, similar to the MBLs.

I read somewhere - probably in a post on this site - that the ear can actually follow the harmonic sequence of a reflection down into the ambient noise floor. This implies that we can follow the reverberant tails that far down, assuming the ear can still pick out enough of the harmonics. And the reverberant tails on the recording (which are primarily delivered to the ears by the in-room reflections) convey venue size cues as well as timbral richness, so they are arguably worth preserving. This of course has implications for room treatment as well as loudspeaker design.

I hypothesize that when the spectral balance of a reflection no longer effortlessly lines up with the initial sound, the ear/brain system has to work harder to correctly identify it as such (and at some point, the discrepancy becomes too great). I think this extra "CPU usage" can cause listening fatigue and even a headache. Speakers like the MBLs and SoundLabs, which minimize the discrepancy, are ime easy to listen to all day long without listening fatigue setting in. Not that this is the only thing that matters of course.
 

Dialectic

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I hypothesize that when the spectral balance of a reflection no longer effortlessly lines up with the initial sound, the ear/brain system has to work harder to correctly identify it as such (and at some point, the discrepancy becomes too great).
This is essentially what the late Siegfried Linkwitz believed.
 

Duke

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This is essentially what the late Siegfried Linkwitz believed.

Thank you very much!! I had no idea someone of his stature actually thought similarly. I asked Floyd Toole about it in another forum and my recollection is that he thought it was a possibility.

I got to hear Siegfried's Audio Artistry Beethoven system in his living room many years ago. He also gave me a sneak peak of his Orions and swore me to secrecy. His ideas and influence continue to ripple out through the home audio universe.
 
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Dialectic

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Thank you very much!! I had no idea someone of his stature actually thought similarly. I asked Floyd Toole about it in another forum and my recollection is that he thought it was a possibility.

I got to hear Siegfried's Audio Artistry Beethoven system in his living room many years ago. He also gave me a sneak peak of his Orions and swore me to secrecy. His ideas and influence continue to ripple out through the home audio universe.
I very much regret not having had a chance to meet the man.

Someone has kindly kept hosting his website, linkwitzlab.com, where Linkwitz expresses in a few places an idea very similar to your hypothesis.
 

MattHooper

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I'm critical of claims that omnidirectional (or wide-directivity) speakers are inherently lower-fidelity than conventional monopoles because the "added" in-room reflections they produce create some kind of (possibly euphonic) "distortion".

For those making such an argument, there seem to me to be only two possible frameworks:
  1. The idea that any reflection is a form of distortion, thus the lower in level reflections are, the higher the fidelity.
  2. The idea that, although reflections are not inherently distorting, there is some "most correct" DI for a loudspeaker (or perhaps some maximum tolerable ratio of direct to reflected sound) such that any level of reflected sound that exceeds this ideal constitutes "distortion".
The problem with (1) is that it implies that the narrower the directivity of the speaker and the more absorptive the room, the higher the fidelity of the reproduction. Its logical conclusion must be that only an anechoic environment is suitable for the highest possible fidelity playback. That's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's what most people have in mind when they say that omni speakers are lower-fidelity than conventional speakers.

The problem with (2) is that any particular choice of loudspeaker DI or room acoustics must be made with reference to information that is not present in the signal. Recordings just do not contain information about the off-axis response of the loudspeaker or the acoustical properties of the listening room.

Interesting points.

I confess my own skeptical hackles start rising whenever I see broad denunciations like "X speaker can never accurately convey the recording/live sound." Because this gets down the rabbit hole of "accurate to what exactly, and to what degree is X actually departing?" By nature, audio hobbyists (not to mention engineers who are often opinionated) may make mountains out of mole-hills.

The first thing I'd say is that I'd been listening to my MBLs right up until I got my Joseph Audio Speakers, and when I put in the JA speakers I was frankly stunned at how much they sounded like the MBLs, tonally, spatially, the clarity. That actually pleased me because it felt like I'd just got much of what I liked in the MBLs, but with a bigger (deeper bass) sound. Now, as it turned out, no, the Joseph speakers like any other forward radiating box speaker can't truly match the MBLs in some of the ways I described. But for a normal box speaker, wow. The point being, I didn't find there to be some huge divide in the sonic presentation as if the MBLs were shown up as "so much less accurate."

The second thing is that, the way I have my room treated and set up, I can really play around with live/dead sound. So if I kept the room lively, yes I'd get tons more room reflection in the sound. It would sound even more "live" with the musicians "in the room" ("They Are Here" sound), where deadening surfaces would bring out more of the ambience in the recording (more "You Are There" character). But this is exactly the same for pretty much every other speaker I've owned. It's exactly the same type of differences I get playing with acoustics when I set up my Thiels or Joseph speakers in the same room. So broad generalisations about how room reflections will swamp things out for an omni have to be mitigated by the nature of the room in which you place them.

And I could play with the apparent room sound/recorded sound mix as I wanted. Like I've described before: Leaving the room live would give more of an impression of the vocalists/instruments brought in to my room. Making it more dead, the soundtage/reverb, say of a live recording in a hall, would take precedent, more like I was peering through the speakers to the recording's acoustic. Where I generally liked to dial the liveness back in to the room just enough so that the sound "opened up" with more "air" but the recorded acoustic predominated. So a classical guitar recording would sound like it's in the hall captured in the recording, but it was like the whole back of my room BECAME that hall. Again, this is just how I dial in my non-omnis as well.

But generally speaking, if on the MBLs I played any of countless tracks I'm familar with, say Talk Talk's Happiness Is Easy, and someone tried to tell me "you aren't hearing that recording accurately" I'd frankly be fairly confused. What, precisely, would I not be hearing? Ever instrument, the drums, the stand up bass, the piano, the flashes of acoustic guitar, the vocal...everything appears in PRECISELY the same "spot" - e.g. acoustic guitar just left of and in front of the bass - as through my other speakers. I could point right to where each image will appear. So it tells me the right sonic information about the mixing/imaging. Will I not hear the reverb used on the vocals, drums, flashes of acoustic guitar etc? Of course I do. It's all there, the very exact nature of the reverbs used, as it is on my other speakers. And if a vocal is recorded super "dry" and "close up" it just appears "dry" and "in the room" just as on my Thiels or Joseph speakers. If the vocals are recorded with verb and depth...that's how they sound and image. I can't think of a thing the MBLs didn't tell me about recordings that my more conventional speakers let me hear.

The main thing was the MBLs tended to sound just that much more "boxless," like an electrostatic, but the images, accurately placed, had a sense of "thereness" and roundness about them.

If someone says "the MBLs image TOO WIDE"...that's not what I heard. Also, the size and width of the soundstage and imaging can be influenced in how widely you space your speakers relative to the listener. Sometimes I'll space my Joseph speakers somewhat close together for a really dense/punchy imaging sound. Sometimes I'll spread them waaay apart where I get more of an immersion effect. Is that now inaccurate?
Well, it sounds "bigger" but all the instruments have the same imaging relationship with one another, just as making a picture bigger makes for a bigger image, but maintaining the same fidelity to relationships in the picture. Which is more "accurate" and why "should" one choose one over the other?

Anyway, my main point being that I take claims like "Omnis can't be ACCURATE" with a grain of salt because, out of experience, if even if they are deviating from someone's standard of "accurate," the result is that I perceived essentially the same characteristics from recording to recording (essentially as much variation) as I did with my other speakers. In fact, I'm not sure any speaker I've owned sounded so much like sonic chameleons, the way the sound could shrink and expand with recordings depending on the recorded acoustics.
 

Newman

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This is essentially what the late Siegfried Linkwitz believed.

Thank you very much!! I had no idea someone of his stature actually thought similarly. ...His ideas and influence continue to ripple out through the home audio universe.

Gee, what happened to “Citation please?” No comment like, “I'd rather read Linkwitz's exact words.”?

A 180 degree policy backflip, in 2 hours. Impressive.
 

Duke

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Gee, what happened to “Citation please?” No comment like, “I'd rather read Linkwitz's exact words.”?

A 180 degree policy backflip, in 2 hours. Impressive.

Credibility, my friend. Credibility.

I generally give people the benefit of the doubt until they give me good reason not to. You earned your way into that elite club by attributing multiple statements to Toole which he did not make.

So are you going to provide the citation I asked for, or just stalk me?
 

youngho

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Gee, what happened to “Citation please?” No comment like, “I'd rather read Linkwitz's exact words.”?

These indirectly back up the original post.

"This allows the brain to give primary attention to the earlier arriving direct sound from the loudspeakers, if the reflected sound streams have similar timbre and spectral content as the direct sound. " (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/listening_room.htm)

"The different room reflection patterns due to the different polar responses become perceptually fused with the direct sound of the loudspeakers, if the reflections are sufficiently delayed and if their spectral content is coherent with the direct sound." (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/AES123-final2.pdf)

"Hearing stereo is an auditory illusion, which is derived from cues in the loudspeaker and room signal streams, from memory patterns and adaptation to the acoustic environment (Avoid to give misleading cues due to cabinet diffraction, panel and cavity resonances, nonlinear distortion and spurious noises) 4) The auditory illusion is perfect when misleading cues have been eliminated and is like a magician’s trick (Loudspeakers and room disappear from the auditory scene) Hearing & Stereo - 2 5) The room reflected and reverberated sound must have the same timbre as the direct sound from the speakers to eliminate misleading cues (Constant Directivity loudspeakers) 6) Room reflections must be delayed for segregation from the direct sound streams (>6 ms)" (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/AES-Helsinki'13/Stereo_loudspeakers-room-2.pdf)
 

Newman

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Credibility, my friend. Credibility.

I generally give people the benefit of the doubt until they give me good reason not to. You earned your way into that elite club by attributing multiple statements to Toole which he did not make.

So are you going to provide the citation I asked for, or just stalk me?

A 180 degree policy backflip in 2 hours is indeed a credibility issue. But not for the one you think.

The accusation of stalking has been reported. Please improve your behaviour.
 

Dialectic

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Always stirring shit up when I didn't mean to...

Here's the Linkwitz passage I was thinking of (from http://linkwitzlab.com/Loudspeaker-Room/tests&measurements.htm):
I have found that the perceived interaction between loudspeaker and room is minimized, if the speaker's radiation pattern approximates that of a dipole, cardioid or monopole (omni), the LX521 being my prime example. These types of speakers have essentially the same radiation pattern from the highest to the lowest frequency emitted and thus radiate off-axis the same sound spectrum as on-axis. The reflected and reverberated sound streams in the room thus carry to a first order the same information as the direct sound stream, only delayed due to speaker placement. This apparently allows our ear/brain hearing apparatus to sort out the direct streams from the rest and focus attention upon the recorded acoustic scene in its own spatial context and to withdraw attention from the two loudspeakers and listening room.
I find this idea intuitively compelling (even if we don't have strong empirical support for it), and it influenced my decision to buy cardioid speakers.
 

krabapple

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Toole says that the dominant factor where directivity matters is spatial, not timbral. And that when you move to multichannel, even upmixed stereo multichannel, this factor fades into insignificance.

Insignificance.

So I wouldn’t be recommending the kind of importance to omnidirectional speakers, particularly “matching reverberant field spectrum to direct spectrum”, that some here have adopted.

cheers

I think this can't be stressed enough: Toole marshals research showing that as you add delivery channels, there are deficits that simply *go away*, perceptually.

It's one reason both of my home audio systems are surround systems, and both are set to run 'stereo' content through an upmixer.
 

Duke

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Thank you for digging all of that up, youngho!

[quoting Siegfried Linkwitz] "Hearing stereo is an auditory illusion, which is derived from cues in the loudspeaker and room signal streams, from memory patterns and adaptation to the acoustic environment (Avoid to give misleading cues due to cabinet diffraction, panel and cavity resonances, nonlinear distortion and spurious noises) 4) The auditory illusion is perfect when misleading cues have been eliminated and is like a magician’s trick (Loudspeakers and room disappear from the auditory scene) Hearing & Stereo - 2 5) The room reflected and reverberated sound must have the same timbre as the direct sound from the speakers to eliminate misleading cues (Constant Directivity loudspeakers) 6) Room reflections must be delayed for segregation from the direct sound streams (>6 ms)" (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/AES-Helsinki'13/Stereo_loudspeakers-room-2.pdf)

Very illuminating! Especially his articulation of "misleading cues". I suspect that the resonances Toole focuses on eliminating are detrimental not just because they distort the frequency response, but because they constitute "misleading cues".
 
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Duke

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[quoting Siegfried Linkwitz] The reflected and reverberated sound streams in the room thus carry to a first order the same information as the direct sound stream, only delayed due to speaker placement. This apparently allows our ear/brain hearing apparatus to sort out the direct streams from the rest and focus attention upon the recorded acoustic scene in its own spatial context and to withdraw attention from the two loudspeakers and listening room.

Yes!! That would be a "You Are There" presentation, which imo is PRIMARILY conveyed by the reflections which arrive AFTER a suitable time interval. Linkwitz aims for 6 milliseconds, Geddes for 10 milliseconds, imo these are variations on the same theme. The key is to minimize the reflections (in particular the lateral reflections) arriving before 6 milliseconds, or 10 milliseconds, as the case may be.

The way I have my room treated and set up, I can really play around with live/dead sound. So if I kept the room lively, yes I'd get tons more room reflection in the sound. It would sound even more "live" with the musicians "in the room" ("They Are Here" sound), where deadening surfaces would bring out more of the ambience in the recording (more "You Are There" character).

My GUESS is that the deadening you mention is selectively reducing the amount of energy in the early reflections moreso than in the later ones. The early reflections are the ones which most strongly convey the "small room signature" of our playback rooms. Damping material affects all reflections which strike it of course, of course, but assuming it's used sparingly, presumably enough late-arrival energy survives to effectively deliver the reverberant tails of the recording venue cues. And in turn it is these reverberant tails which convey the illusion of envelopment in the acoustic space of the recording venue (assuming a suitable recording). Thus early reflections dominant = "They Are Here"; later reflections dominant = "You Are There".

Matt, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Does what I described sound more or less consistent with your observations?
 

MattHooper

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My GUESS is that the deadening you mention is selectively reducing the amount of energy in the early reflections moreso than in the later ones. The early reflections are the ones which most strongly convey the "small room signature" of our playback rooms. Damping material affects all reflections which strike it of course, of course, but assuming it's used sparingly, presumably enough late-arrival energy survives to effectively deliver the reverberant tails of the recording venue cues. And in turn it is these reverberant tails which convey the illusion of envelopment in the acoustic space of the recording venue (assuming a suitable recording). Thus early reflections dominant = "They Are Here"; later reflections dominant = "You Are There".

Matt, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Does what I described sound more or less consistent with your observations?

I think so....maybe. Most commonly I play with the early sidewall reflections. But I have curtains that can pull around every wall of the room, in a box. Plus, as I've mentioned before, the wall behind the speakers consists of essentially a giant projection screen that is sonically reflective (at least in the higher frequencies) and adds liveness to the sound. However, I employ a remote controlled 4 way masking system of velvet panels so that I can essentially close up almost that entire front wall in velvet, making it very dead sounding. When listening to music I usually have about, say, 1/3 to 1/2 of that back wall "open" to the reflective screen, and I can open it up more for an airier soundstage. I don't often draw the curtains behind my listening sofa - that gets too dead. But I've played with it. So essentially I've played with all four walls, but usually the side walls. (My speakers tend to sit out about 4 feet from the wall behind them).

Dunno if that really tells you much. My room is 13' X 15' deep, bay window area behind the listening sofa. Large room opening to the all, near the R speaker side of the room.
 

Duke

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I think so....maybe. Most commonly I play with the early sidewall reflections.

I would expect the early sidewall reflections, the one-bounce reflections off the wall behind the speakers, and the one-bounce reflections off the wall behind the listener to be the ones which most contribute to "small room signature", probably in that order.
 
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Newman

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Newman, can you show me where Toole says that room was the sonic disaster you allege, and where the M-1's were likewise? Does he actually say it, or are you reading in between the lines?

The room

My actual words: “Bad room... horrendous, virtually a giant echo chamber that just plain sounded bad....”

Toole’s actual words: “I built the largest concert hall that I could.... a very open living/dining room.... sparse furnishings.... a lot of glass windows.... (Newman: and some acoustic treatments IMO aimed at concert hall acoustics).... a parade of loudspeakers went through that room, and all disappointed.”

Comment: I don’t see anything wrong with describing a room that makes a ‘parade’ of loudspeakers sound bad, as a bad room for audio playback. That’s a fair definition of a room that is not suited to audio playback: it doesn’t work well with loudspeakers — presumably good loudspeakers, designed for audio playback. It was designed to be something else, a “concert hall” quote/unquote, and from that point onwards it was about finding speakers that could live in it.

And to round off, where did I say that Toole said that the room is sonically poor? I didn’t. So I am allowed to say what I thought of the room, based on all the difficulties it caused, when used for audio playback. There is no reason to question my credibility, or ask where Toole used my exact words, because I never said that Toole said it.

The speakers

My actual words: “he needed a loudspeaker that was really bad at soundstage reproduction and greatly blurred the sonic image”

Toole’s actual words: “some blurring and expansion of the soundstage was needed”

Comment: no doubt I exaggerated, but I didn’t say the opposite of what he said, and it doesn’t alter the point I was making that he was describing special needs that dictated the choice of speaker. If I misrepresented him by exaggeration, then you misrepesented him by omission when you made a big deal of the M1 being “Floyd Toole's choice from among all the speakers tested at the NRC in Canada”, with no mention of the special needs and room behind that choice. That has always been my point. My new point is that claims that I am a liar need to be retracted, along with claims that I have no credibility. If you needed clarification about which words were my own and which were Toole’s, you could go by the universal rules that I use, along with the general community: quote marks for Toole’s words, otherwise they are mine.

Regards
 

youngho

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Toole says that the dominant factor where directivity matters is spatial, not timbral. And that when you move to multichannel, even upmixed stereo multichannel, this factor fades into insignificance.

Can you please provide a specific reference or quotation of what you say that Toole said? In your words, "the universal rules that I use" and "quote marks for Toole’s words, otherwise they are mine,"

My actual words: “Bad room... horrendous, virtually a giant echo chamber that just plain sounded bad....”

Toole’s actual words: “I built the largest concert hall that I could.... a very open living/dining room.... sparse furnishings.... a lot of glass windows.... (Newman: and some acoustic treatments IMO aimed at concert hall acoustics).... a parade of loudspeakers went through that room, and all disappointed.”

From Toole's book, 3rd edition, page 189-190 regarding the room: "no obvious acoustical treatment...Acoustically it was a pleasant space to be in. Over the years, a parade of loudspeakers went through that room, and all disappointed. The room was an unforgiving critic of loudspeakers in which the direct and reflected sounds exhibited different spectra, and conventional forward-firing loudspeakers drew attention to themselves. With many common, frankly primitive, recording techniques, entire sections of the orchestra inappropriately emerged from a single loudspeaker. Some blurring and expansion of the soundstage IN THOSE CASES (emphasis mine) was needed...Then, in 1989, a new loudspeakers came on the scene: the almost omnidirectional, bidirectional-in-phase "bipolar" Mirage M1. They performed well in double-blind listening tests in the small NRCC room, and also in this large one." Page 346: "In the NRCC double-blind listening tests, it was very highly rated."

Is there a reason you omitted the "acoustically it was a pleasant space to be in"?
 
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