Older RME interfaces vs. newer MOTU, Focusrite, etc. vs. USB mixer?

[Nathan_A]

Howdy,

I need to consolidate things on my desk and improve the UX of fiddling with all my random audio sources and sinks. Since the pandemic began I've been working from home and have started doing more audio related activities:

* Endless video calls
* Recording podcasts
* Listening to music
* Some online gaming

This has me using earbuds, a desktop USB mic, a headset mic, desktop speakers, headphones, a desktop USB DAC, and a headphone amp.

The tangle of wires, devices, mics, and ear-gear is making me nuts. Not to mention the hassle of managing which one is active when and for what. Managing their relative volume levels depending on what's going on is a whole other pain in the neck.

I'm trying to figure out how to best consolidate as much as possible. I was originally going to get something like a Yamaha MG10XU and have it double as a stereo AI into my workstation, but it's headphone amp seems anemic, and I can't find much useful info about its DAC/ADC performance.

In fact, anemic headphone amp performance seems to be very typical among audio interfaces like those from MOTU and Focusrite. Though RME seems to have a better go of it.

This got me wondering about how far back in time in terms of RME gear where you're likely still getting modern-ish MOTU level performance in the DAC/ADC section, but getting RME quality headphone amplification. For instance how's old FireWire era stuff hold up? Like the RME Fireface 800 or some top-end gear from other gear of the era like the Metric Halo 2882 + DSP (I used to have one of these years and years ago)? What about older MOTU gear higher up in the line like the 828mkIII, etc.?

Cheers!

 

[Trell]

Do you intend to buy new microphones? An audio interface can’t use USB mics. How is your headset mic connected today? To use it you might have to buy an adapter that converts 48V phantom power from the audio interface to 5V range.

What budget do you have?

 

[storing]

This got me wondering about how far back in time in terms of RME gear where you're likely still getting modern-ish MOTU level performance in the DAC/ADC section, but getting RME quality headphone amplification.

I don't know if early RME gear ever had worse ADC/DAC performance than current day MOTU (interesting though, what makes you think that?), but devices like the Multiface already had SNR and distortion performance way better than audible thresholds (don't have the actual measurements anymore, sorry). Unfortunately I never measured the headphone outputs but I have used it for years and while it might not have been the highest power outputs, it was for me certainly transparent enough, subjectively speaking. As to 'holding up', assuming you mean lifetime: only anecdotal evidence I have an RME Multiface (1st gen IIRC) lying around which still works and a friend's Fireface is also still going.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I wouldn't go with anything firewire. Even Mac doesn't really support Firewire. You could get adapters to Thunderbolt, but the problem is almost none of those have 64 bit drivers and current Mac OS won't allow anything less. RME might be the exception, but still at least get something in USB or Thunderbolt era. If you are on Windows, few Windows machines have firewire though some do.

You are right most interfaces don't have robust headphone outs. Most sound fine if your headphone is high impedance and easy to drive.

Modern RME is a bit better than older RME, but as others have posted any will be more than good enough for your purposes.

 

[Nathan_A]

Do you intend to buy new microphones? An audio interface can’t use USB mics. How is your headset mic connected today? To use it you might have to buy an adapter that converts 48V phantom power from the audio interface to 5V range.

What budget do you have?

I'm happy to get new mics. I really don't like this Yeti device much. I get the appeal, but I'd rather have more flexibility. The headset is a 3.5mm plug. Getting adapters or a different headset are also fine.

I wanna stay somewhere in the ballpark of ~$500 or so. Everything is currently connected to my desktop workstation PC running Linux. It has USB, a PCI-X FireWire card, and a PCIe Thunderbolt card in it. So, I'm pretty flexible there in terms of host connectivity.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'm happy to get new mics. I really don't like this Yeti device much. I get the appeal, but I'd rather have more flexibility. The headset is a 3.5mm plug. Getting adapters or a different headset are also fine.

I wanna stay somewhere in the ballpark of ~$500 or so. Everything is currently connected to my desktop workstation PC running Linux. It has USB, a PCI-X FireWire card, and a PCIe Thunderbolt card in it. So, I'm pretty flexible there in terms of host connectivity.

Linux will be problematic with many interfaces. I love it, run Linux on my desktop. But I record with Windows or Mac laptops. You just save too many headaches to insist on Linux for this.

 

[Trell]

I'm happy to get new mics. I really don't like this Yeti device much. I get the appeal, but I'd rather have more flexibility. The headset is a 3.5mm plug. Getting adapters or a different headset are also fine.

I wanna stay somewhere in the ballpark of ~$500 or so. Everything is currently connected to my desktop workstation PC running Linux. It has USB, a PCI-X FireWire card, and a PCIe Thunderbolt card in it. So, I'm pretty flexible there in terms of host connectivity.

As @Blumlein 88 writes many audio interfaces are not well supported on Linux.

I’ve no experience using an audio interface on Linux, but if I where to use one on Linux I would consider one that has full USB Audio Class 2.0 support. In any case you’ll need to be much more careful when selecting the interface.

 

[Nathan_A]

Unfortunately, I don't have much choice in terms of the OS. The rest of my work strongly depends on Linux. So, I want to try to get it working as best I can. It does look like some FireWire audio device support made it into the Linux kernel some time back for certain interface ICs. The old-ish RME devices are reasonably priced on the used market, so I could try one out. No idea how they stack up to modern gear though.

However, it also occurs to me that it might be more desirable as a matter of UX to be fiddling with audio routing, mixing, etc. through analog controls at the tip of my fingers rather than having to monkey around with a UI on my computer for the same tasks. The trouble with this though is that mixers that can act as a digital audio interface don't appear to have much in the way of measurements/benchmarks online. They also seem to have fairly low price points, like the Yamaha AG and MG series, so I kind of expect ADC/DAC performance to be middle-tier at best.

 

[Nathan_A]

I take part of that back, it looks like there are tons of mixers with build-in digital audio interfaces. Some really high-end ones too. FireWire, USB, etc. So, I guess the question is somewhat... who's the RME of the mixer + DAI game in terms of measurements & sound quality? TASCAM?

 

[Blumlein 88]

I take part of that back, it looks like there are tons of mixers with build-in digital audio interfaces. Some really high-end ones too. FireWire, USB, etc. So, I guess the question is somewhat... who's the RME of the mixer + DAI game in terms of measurements & sound quality? TASCAM?

Nearly all mixers are bottlenecked in only allowing stereo 44 or 48 khz and usually 16 bit at that to go to and from the computer over USB. For your purposes that may still be okay.

The big names are Mackie, Tascam, and Yamaha. Behringer, and Peavy is there too. I don't know if one is better supported than others. Allen and Heath is upscale, but I'm not sure they perform much better in the end.

As for Linux support often even supported devices are only going to work with linux over stereo. You won't get full access to more than that. There are some exceptions, but not many. And I'm simply warning you as someone who really wanted to make linux work for recording interfaces you are opening a world of headaches for yourself that you can simply avoid. Now Reaper as a DAW works fine in Linux. I often do mixing of recordings on my Linux desktop, but I record with laptops running Mac or Windows. Maybe a good reason to stick with a USB microphone which does work on linux. There are others besides the one you have now.

 

[Nathan_A]

Nearly all mixers are bottlenecked in only allowing stereo 44 or 48 khz and usually 16 bit at that to go to and from the computer over USB. For your purposes that may still be okay.

As for Linux support often even supported devices are only going to work with linux over stereo. You won't get full access to more than that. There are some exceptions, but not many. And I'm simply warning you as someone who really wanted to make linux work for recording interfaces you are opening a world of headaches for yourself that you can simply avoid.

Oh, I know.

I opened up this can of miserable worms and time-sinks when I switched from Mac to Linux a few years back for work, and unfortunately I'm still in the same boat today. When I can, I'll switch back. Unfortunately, that day is not today. For the moment, I'm stuck.

The the Yamaha MG stuff seems to be 24-bit/192khz, but but as we know those details don't tell much of a story regarding the overall performance of a device. It does seems to have decent build quality for the price. On my desk I'm accustom to a Topping D50s DAC and a JDS Labs Atom amp for playback. I know I'm not going to replicate that kind of performance via a mixer w/ an integrated DAI, but I'd like to try to stay in the ballpark if possible. The TASCAM Model 12 is a nice looking piece of kit, and would fit perfectly on my desk next to my workstation setup. It has way, way more inputs than I can imagine needing, but they don't make a Model 10, so... :shrug:

Any recommendations of manufacturers and/or specific models to look at?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Well for starters, maybe my info on most mixers being limited to 44 or 48 at 16 bit has changed. Looks like the latest of many mixers while still limited to stereo back to the computer over USB do allow 192 khz and 24 bit.

The Mackie also does that now in ProFXv3 series and I've liked their Onyx mic pres better, but I've not used the latest in mixers much. Mackie offers mixers with 6 and 8 inputs if 12 is too many for you. I really think if you match up what inputs and features you need any of the current mixers will do a nice job for you.

BTW, Yamaha does offer an MG10 and MG6. Here is a nice chart showing the various options.

MG Analog Mixing Consoles Specs - Yamaha USA

Specifications for Yamaha MG analog mixing consoles that deliver outstanding audio performance in a tough steel chassis providing unrivaled durability.

usa.yamaha.com

A quick search so some get the MG series to work on linux some have high latency issues. Also with any OS apparently for some reason in this series Yamaha reduces the USB levels by 15 db.

I just found this on the Mackie ProFx series. They now support Linux apparently. The supplied OEM Waveform DAW works on Linux. Behringer also supplies this with some gear and a company called Roli I'm not familiar with. I'm not sure if this guarantees it will work with Linux with a different DAW. Maybe a local dealer would let you borrow a demo unit and take it home to try it first.

https://mackie.com/products/onyx-series-premium-analog-mixers-multitrack-usb Scroll down the page on the Waveform OEM DAW where it says it works with Linux.

Info on the Waveform OEM DAW.

Waveform OEM | Tracktion

www.tracktion.com

 

[digitallysane]

Any recommendations of manufacturers and/or specific models to look at?

I have an Allen & Heath ZEDi 10 at work and I'm happy with it.
Sure it's not some high-end thing but the sound quality is (subjectively) good and I like that it has a 4x4 USB interface, so you can have two stereo channels coming from your computer, and separately adjust the levels for those with physical knobs. It's also very well built. Does up to 24/96, so plenty for my needs in this regard.
It drives a set of Adam Audio T7V and a pair of Yamaha HPH-MT8 monitoring headphones.

At home I have a Yamaha AG06 mixer/AI and I'm happy with it as well, it drives a set of Genelecs 8010A with 7040 sub (and a pair of AudioTechnica M50 headphones). Is fed by my laptop, my MODX synth keyboard, a Nintendo Switch and a XLR mic.

Need to mention that I'm not really an "audiophile" so while both setups are used for music listening, main purpose is monitoring for DAW/film editing work and music learning.

 

[musicaddict22]

Hi

New to this forum. I'm just passing by to say hi and to mention this:

I had a 2010 rme fireface 800 and a pair of lucid 9624 ad & d/a converters. I previously used a RME Multiface 2 among countless entry level audio interfaces. I also worked with great converters in recording studios thanks to my job from brands like lynx, apogee, mytek, hedd, pro tools system...

I was looking for a compact interface to carry on during the pandemics. I put my eye on motu m4 thanks in part in a review from this forum.

I am almost exclusively post-producing (editing audio and mixing) and recording vocals, some synths and quite few acoustic instruments for the last 6 years in my little project studio.

Please note that I always tended to prefer my lucid 9624 D/A converters than the rme fireface 800 onboard D/A. They always sounded more open and analytical to me and felt that they suit my listening needs slightly better than RME D/A conversion. Not a night and day difference but slightly open and sweet sounding, maybe was just a matter of taste.

I made a listening blind test between 2010 ff800, lucid 9624 D/A (early 2000) and motu m4 D/A converters (2019) and the results were unexoected for me. I Found myself preferering MOTU M4 D/A conversion 90% of the time. I was kind of surprised. I said to myself: "this must be a joke, how a 250$ interface can have that sound?"...

I Ended selling both lucid and rme and keeped m4 for everyday use. No regrets at all. I don't need a huge amount of inputs and outputs and just 2 external preamps ars more than enough for me. Lucids were nice, but this helped me to simplify my setup too. You don't need more to run a project studio (if you don't record drums of course)

Happy m4 user here.
My only complaint are the preamps, they could be more "exciting" but as a clean pres are pretty good. I preffer to hook up some other pres that suit better my recording needs.

No issues with headphone amp, i use to drive beyerdinamic headphones and have a decent volume. Same from monitor output, driving a pair of genelecs in a medium room the knob are arround 1 o'clock most lf the time.

This year I only heard apogee, lynx or mytek converters and maybe the ones in antelope interfaces to be superior to those motu line, maybe universal audio gear, but they costs hundreds, not thousands...

And I can assure that the quality of their converters are far to the rest of entry level interfaces for sure... at least from usual brands like focusrite, audient, etc.

250 for this? An absolutely no-brainer. Buy 3 of them!

My 2 cents here.

 

[Nathan_A]

I ended up with a TASCAM Model 12.

So far, so good. It works great in Linux with an appropriately configured ALSA/PulseAudio profile making sure all the channels are mapped in a sane way.

No idea how it measures, but I absolutely vastly prefer having a physical interface immediately at my fingertips for making channel & routing adjustments instead of having to poke around a virtual mix panel on my PC. The DAW control functionality is also excellent for when I am actually fiddling with editing audio recordings.

The dual phone outputs let me keep my earbuds for work and my headphones for music/play connected at all times, and the bonus 4-pole 3.5mm input/output on stereo 9/10 is wonderfully useful for bringing in things like game & "party chat" audio from the 3.5mm port on a game controller. I haven't tried to use the Bluetooth functionality yet, but if it lets me transparently loop in my phone, then I'm going to be a super happy camper. This thing will end up being exactly the all-in-one "desktop audio command center" that I'd hoped.

So far my only real complaints are how finicky it is with SD cards and not being able to route the SUB MIX to the PHONES outputs, but I created a work around using the SOLO MIX. However, the Model 12 is actually a digital mixer, and TASCAM has been pretty responsive putting out firmware updates which add features and fix annoyances that folks in the marketplace have identified.

 

[MenloBob]

That's a nice piece of kit.

I ended up with a TASCAM Model 12.

So far, so good. It works great in Linux with an appropriately configured ALSA/PulseAudio profile making sure all the channels are mapped in a sane way.

No idea how it measures, but I absolutely vastly prefer having a physical interface immediately at my fingertips for making channel & routing adjustments instead of having to poke around a virtual mix panel on my PC. The DAW control functionality is also excellent for when I am actually fiddling with editing audio recordings.

The dual phone outputs let me keep my earbuds for work and my headphones for music/play connected at all times, and the bonus 4-pole 3.5mm input/output on stereo 9/10 is wonderfully useful for bringing in things like game & "party chat" audio from the 3.5mm port on a game controller. I haven't tried to use the Bluetooth functionality yet, but if it lets me transparently loop in my phone, then I'm going to be a super happy camper. This thing will end up being exactly the all-in-one "desktop audio command center" that I'd hoped.

So far my only real complaints are how finicky it is with SD cards and not being able to route the SUB MIX to the PHONES outputs, but I created a work around using the SOLO MIX. However, the Model 12 is actually a digital mixer, and TASCAM has been pretty responsive putting out firmware updates which add features and fix annoyances that folks in the marketplace have identified.