Older Amplifiers Better?

[SdeGat]

Thanks to all who pitched in on this topic.
It was interesting and even entertaining at times.

There are too many of you for individual answers but I am pretty confident that the consensus is that old/vintage amplifiers sound quality was not (is not) better than what we get with new gear. Of course, 50 year old high-end gear is likely better than basic consumer stuff but that's understandable. We need to compare equivalent levels as it is the "quality of the device that matters." (@Audionaut)

Some pointed out that everything is a matter of taste and that's OK too. "Some audio crazies prefer a hyper accurate sound, while others prefer the big tone of the usually less accurate tube & vinyl gear. Enjoy what you like, whatever the accuracy level." (@egellings) "A lot of "audiophiles" are fascinated with outdated (and often inferior) technology (like tubes & vinyl, etc.) ,,, And most of the audiophile community is just nuts!!! This is one of the few rational-scientific resources." (@DVDdoug)

And the discussion would be different if we moved from the sound quality topic to "reliability, design, thermal performance, or differences in specification ratings" (@Old_School_Brad).

So the best of both worlds might be what @eddantes alluded to when new gear is "embracing nostalgia".

 

[Old_School_Brad]

Thanks to all who pitched in on this topic.
It was interesting and even entertaining at times.

There are too many of you for individual answers but I am pretty confident that the consensus is that old/vintage amplifiers sound quality was not (is not) better than what we get with new gear. Of course, 50 year old high-end gear is likely better than basic consumer stuff but that's understandable. We need to compare "equivalent levels".

Some pointed out that everything is a matter of taste and that's OK too. "Some audio crazies prefer a hyper accurate sound, while others prefer the big tone of the usually less accurate tube & vinyl gear. Enjoy what you like, whatever the accuracy level." (@egellings) "A lot of "audiophiles" are fascinated with outdated (and often inferior) technology (like tubes & vinyl, etc.) ,,, And most of the audiophile community is just nuts!!! This is one of the few rational-scientific resources." (@DVDdoug)

And the discussion would be different if we moved from the sound quality topic to "reliability, design, thermal performance, or differences in specification ratings" (@Old_School_Brad).

So the best of both worlds might be what @eddantes alluded to when new gear is "embracing nostalgia".

Cool, I like the wrap-up!

 

[Chr1]

Reckon that the best bang for buck is usually found somewhere in the middle personally. Not current cutting edge, but not strictly "vintage" either. I have got some great deals on amplifiers from the 90s through the 00s. Particularly pro-audio A/Bs (eg 4 x Crown Macro-Tech 1200s: Mint £200). Plus various high quality Japanese from the likes of Denon, Technics, Teac etc. New enough and built to be reliable/repairable. Tansparent, yet old enough to be bought at a great price from folks who want the latest and greatest.
Or, unlike me, aspire to smaller WAF friendly components.

 

[DanielT]

Reckon that the best bang for buck is usually found somewhere in the middle personally. Not current cutting edge, but not strictly "vintage" either. I have got some great deals on amplifiers from the 90s through the 00s. Particularly pro-audio A/Bs (eg 4 x Crown Macro-Tech 1200s: Mint £200). Plus various high quality Japanese from the likes of Denon, Technics, Teac etc. New enough and built to be reliable/repairable. Tansparent, yet old enough to be bought at a great price from folks who want the latest and greatest.
Or, unlike me, aspire to smaller WAF friendly components.

My guess is that amplifiers from the 90s through the 00s don't have the looks that appeal to those looking for older amplifiers.

The video below covers the price trend of vintage HiFi. Some receivers, for example, have doubled in price in two years. Even (hold on to your hat while you check out the video or screenshot below) boomboxes/ portable cassette players have increased significantly in price.

Why the price increase on these vintage HiFi featured in the video? The looks are apparently appealing. The nostalgia aspect should not be downplayed.
The flagship models, the upper tier is that collector's value so high that it can be seen as an investment?

Okay, supply and demand applies, but despite that, in my eyes, in some (even many) cases vintage HiFi prices are crazy high.
Regarding price. He at Skylabs Audio should know what he's talking about because it's his livelihood to buy, sell, service and repair vintage HiFi.

Edit:
He addresses the price increase of vintage: receivers, turntables, speakers, cassette decks and boomboxes. They have increased in price, but basically everything with tubes in it has not seen a price increase. At least with the tube HiFi he buys and sells, if I understand him correctly.

 

[Chr1]

Hate to use the car analogy again, but yes, if you want a vintage sports car, you best either have deep pockets or be good at spannering!

If you want bang for buck, buy something new-ish, low millage + well maintained, but not brand new/current...

Saying that, I do have a couple of vintage wood panelled collectable amps that I bought cheap to sell on. Enjoy watching their value climb, but I won't be using them as they are integrateds and I only need power amps personally.

 

[MRC01]

Hate to use the car analogy again, but yes, if you want a vintage sports car, you best either have deep pockets or be good at spannering!
If you want bang for buck, buy something new-ish, low millage + well maintained, but not brand new/current...

Yes that modern car will be more practical, at least for a few years. To take the analogy further, do you think that new low mileage electric car will still be working 30 years from now? Almost certainly not. It relies too much on software and logic boards that will eventually be abandoned and not repairable. At least the vintage car is simple and mechanical giving you the option to keep it running if you have the skills and tools. That option simply doesn't exist with some modern cars - their obsolescence is assured, sooner or later.

Of course most people don't care because they don't keep a car for more than 5-10 years. Nor an audio amplifier.

 

[Chr1]

I am more of a bike guy personally. Several motorcycles but none electric as I don't think that they are quite there yet. (Too heavy and expensive.)

Amp wise I am similarly into well proven A/Bs as they are good value and reliable. Also got two vintage-ish A, AB1 power amps. One a 90s Lazarus valve/mosfet hybrid. Also a VTL valve amp, circa 2000.
(I equate using valves to running a vintage sports bike or car. Can be costly to maintain and not strictly the highest performance but sound great to me, and very enjoyable nonetheless!)
My KH310s are my daily drivers tho. Have to say that I'm a fan of both new and old tech personally.

 

[oleg87]

Yes that modern car will be more practical, at least for a few years. To take the analogy further, do you think that new low mileage electric car will still be working 30 years from now? Almost certainly not. It relies too much on software and logic boards that will eventually be abandoned and not repairable. At least the vintage car is simple and mechanical giving you the option to keep it running if you have the skills and tools. That option simply doesn't exist with some modern cars - their obsolescence is assured, sooner or later.

Of course most people don't care because they don't keep a car for more than 5-10 years. Nor an audio amplifier.

I think the capability to do it is a pretty secondary issue. Keeping an old car or an amp in good order always requires an investment of time and money into something that generally has depreciated to almost zero value. At some point the math of dumping more money and effort into a hole just stops making sense unless it’s something really special. Though of course amps are less complex and have less things to fail than cars.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

I think the capability to do it is a pretty secondary issue. Keeping an old car or an amp in good order always requires an investment of time and money into something that generally has depreciated to almost zero value. At some point the math of dumping more money and effort into a hole just stops making sense unless it’s something really special. Though of course amps are less complex and have less things to fail than cars.

Case in point: my NAD 370. It still works and sounds great, but it really needs a recapping and replacing some of the resistors that have been damaged by heat.

I'm probably never going to bother with the renovation because the NAD 370 now sits in a box in storage. Why? technology has moved on, and I much prefer an integrated device that can accept digital inputs and apply DSP / room correction. For my home office, that is now an RME ADI-2 Pro and for our living room, it is a Denon x4400 AVR.

By contrast, my Emotiva LPA-7 (connected to the Denon x4400's pre-outs for 7.1 audio) is still running strong since 2007 with no issues. I'll keep using this until it dies. After that, I'd replace with a modern Class-D — or whatever is state-of-the-art in 5 to 10 years from now. But no point replacing it until then since this amp is perfect for what it does.

 

[EJ3]

Then we have this aspect if we are to compare modern with old, vintage. Compare here and now, that is:

Overall, I am happy to recommend the NAD 2200. I almost gave it the highest honors
That sounds good, but then comes a but: but given the upgraded nature of the test unit, and the fact that used amps may have issues, I avoided that. But you could have easily pushed me to give it the golfing panther.

...NOTE: the output relay on stock 2200 gets corroded and fails over time...

This is a review and detailed measurements of a refurbished and upgraded NAD 2200...fully updated ...So not only have the inside components been updated/replaced, but a lot of care has gone to cosmetically clean the unit. Peter sent me a long list of parts he has upgraded including reservoir capacitors and such. As a result, I don't know how representative of measurements are of stock units although probably not too far off.

NAD 2200 Vintage Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of a refurbished and upgraded NAD 2200 stereo amplifier. It was bought by a member, sent to QuirkAudio to be fully updated and then loaned to me. The work that Peter has done is exemplary. The inside looks brand new! I have repaired hundreds of...

audiosciencereview.com

This is my amp. It has been in service since it was new (along with the other 5 and the 2 NAD 2100's). The upgrades:

A couple of further details are worth explaining. When NAD built the 2600 and 2700, both of which use much of the same circuitry as the 2200, they made certain improvements in both quality (e.g. Film and Silver Mica for ceramic caps) and power rail decoupling (additional capacitance), and these have been incorporated in the NAD 2200 upgrades.

Additionally there are some modern components that were simply not available, such as the Schottky diodes and audio IC’s, which have also been incorporated into the NAD 2200.

All the circuits remained the same.
EJ3

 

[EJ3]

I liked what NAD did here (C 3050), with very good Class D inside. Would have preferred it in Sansui black/silver without the wood, but hey.

View attachment 424277

Lack o' power & integrated are things that killed this for me.

 

[EJ3]

Keeping an old car or an amp in good order always requires an investment of time and money into something that generally has depreciated to almost zero value.

Perhaps you should check the value of old cars here, many easily beat the S&P 500. And you get to enjoy driving them:

https://www.streetsideclassics.com/

 

[Bruce Morgen]

I like and use amplifiers from the 1980ies. My Yamaha M-85 power amp has specs not far from the class-D ones and enough power. Sound is still very good with my big speakers. Whether a new class-D amp will sound better, I don't think. Benefit of the old ones with discrete components is that I can repair the unit without needing specialized integrated circuits which may not available anymore after 10 years.

I like and still use my 40 year old Yamaha processors because there's nothing like them available new for a price I can afford. That said, all the amplification in my 7.1 system is modern Class D stuff. The ambience/surround speakers are driven -- after DSP to EQ those speakers and compensate for non-PFFB load dependency -- by two now-elderly Aiyima A07s, and the rest of my speakers are active. I have spare A07s, so no worries about them failing some day, and all my active speakers are from reputable companies that stock board-level spares -- and to my knowledge they have no fully-custom silicon of the sort that will become "pure unobtainium" at some future point. My only worry in that regard pertains to one of those old Yamaha processors, which has a fully-custom (the only option circa 1985) DSP chip that can only be had via East Asian NOS suppliers -- but, since I can readily replace that unit for less than $200 second-hand, trying to repair it would make no sense anyway.

 

[Timcognito]

Older amplifiers better?
naaaahhhh.
just more fun.
hamingredient pano 14Apr2019 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

+

 

[mhardy6647]

View attachment 424508 + View attachment 424513

I am rolling on the floor.


In my defense* I do have this, already:

 

[Bruce Morgen]

I am rolling on the floor.


In my defense* I do have this, already:

That's terrible -- everyone knows hooking up speakers with 1/4" TS cables smears the sound -- those connections are even worse than (shudder) steel binding post nuts! Your speakers must sound like an overdriven Fender Princeton!!

 

[EJ3]

View attachment 424508 + View attachment 424513

It's only rated for 900 watts/4 amps, if you're using a lot of very low power stuff, you might be OK.

 

[pablolie]

It's only rated for 900 watts/4 amps, if you're using a lot of very low power stuff, you might be OK.

It'll also make your morning toast nice and crisp... :-D

 

[EJ3]

It'll also make your morning toast nice and crisp... :-D

Yes, plug in what I can plug into any receptacle in my home (each receptacle is a 20 AMP one, as is each breaker in the electrical box) and this SUPERDANA is definitely toast!

 

[SdeGat]

A lot of "audiophiles" are fascinated with outdated (and often inferior) technology (like tubes & vinyl, etc.) ,,, And most of the audiophile community is just nuts!!! This is one of the few rational-scientific resources.

(…)

See Audiophoolery

By the way @DVDdoug, I have started to read Audiophoolery and found it very interesting. Especially the cable part as this is something I’ve always advocated myself. Thanks.