Old (vintage) vs new CD Player DAC differences?

[skymusic20]

Hello all.
Im curious as to know how much of a difference is there in entry level CD players from the 90s as compared to current ones.
Particularly, I would like to know about how much better is a current DAC vs an old one.
Here I refer to entry level (cheap/inexpensive) CD players only.
I got a Sony CD player from 1992, it is the CDP-C715:
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sony/cdp-c715.shtml
It sounds very good to my ears, very clear, very neat, crystal clear sound... Besides, it plays perfectly any CD, new ones, old ones, scratched ones, home made ones (CD-R, etc), anything it plays without effort.
It is made in Japan.
The sound, as I said, is very good.
Now I have read that modern DACs in CD players are superior than older ones, even in entry level cheap players.
Now, I have a few questions.
This Sony CD player has a front label that says "PULSE D/A CONVERTER"
What does that mean? Is it a good DAC inside? Or is it a piece of junk of old crap DAC?
Would I get a much better DAC if I buy an entry level modern (2020) CD Player?
What is "PULSE DAC"? Is it a good thing to have a PULSE dac (whatever that means)?
Also, in the link above specifications say: "Digital converter: CXD2561M " What is that? Good? Bad?
Well, if someone can comment on the specifications shown on the above link I would appreciate.
I don't know what I got but it sounds very, very good..... and it was almost free.
Just want to know if there would be a significant improvement going for a brand new modern CD player (entry level).

Thanks all!

 

[restorer-john]

Just want to know if there would be a significant improvement going for a brand new modern CD player (entry level).

The machine was already past the limits of the format it was playing.

This Sony CD player has a front label that says "PULSE D/A CONVERTER" What does that mean? Is it a good DAC inside?

Sony had switched from Burr Brown multibit D/As to their own "one bit" PWM converters around 1990. The converter in the machine is a perfectly adequate and good performer.

Besides, it plays perfectly any CD, new ones, old ones, scratched ones, home made ones, anything it plays without effort.

Good reason to just keep on using it. Modern entry level CD players are nothing to get excited about.

 

[pozz]

Check out these measurements of a Philips CD150 by @mansr.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Note that a nigh 30-year-old CD player may no longer work as new. If the optics are dirty, adjustments are out or the odd electrolytic capacitor has seen better days (the KSS-240A in this unit is quite notorious for a little SMD electrolytic going bad, as they almost universally do in this time frame), the player may be making copious use of interpolation without it being too obvious (as that's what interpolation was designed to do).

What I would suggest doing is trying to capture the SPDIF data stream via a soundcard with optical in (OK - possibly easier said than done), perhaps on a disc that's not easy to read, and comparing the recording with the same track conventionally ripped and verified. If both tracks are sample-aligned and you invert one, the difference should be a solid digital zero.

One of these days I'll have to get some CD-Rs (I don't think I even have any anymore) and burn RMAA test tracks onto one to test my trusty Onkyo DX-6920... that one is known to be not exactly dead neutral in sound, but it clears up with an external DAC, so possibly something getting into the DAC Vref? (This has caused issues with different sound on bit-identical CDs in the past - DAC Vref was being influenced by the servo circuitry.)

 

[restorer-john]

Note that a nigh 30-year-old CD player may no longer work as new.

And it may (most likely) perform as well as the day it was made. The OP states it plays anything he throws at it which is a very good sign.

My main reference machines are 30 years old and they test as well as they did in 1989. The only things I need to do to them are a new set of loading/mech belts, some general lubrication and inspection and test every 7 years or so.

Some brands are phenomenally reliable, others not so much.

 

[anmpr1]

The 'old' CD players were generally more ergonomic than anything you can get today. You could isolate tracks and program them easily. Some would offer index programming (as if anyone used that!). The readouts actually told you stuff about disc timing, emphasis etc.

I think Technics made players that could 'scan' a CD for the loudest passage, making it easier to set your levels when you dubbed cassettes for you car. I know that feature will be important to everyone, today!

Seriously, if I was still playing CDs and had an old player, and if it still worked, I'd keep it until it stops doing that. I'm pretty sure (doing this from memory) that many of the higher end models sported digital out jacks. Optical or coax. If you have one of those, it is ready for your latest and greatest stand alone DAC, I guess.

 

[skymusic20]

Check out these measurements of a Philips CD150 by @mansr.

Hi, thanks, but Im afraid Im ignorant enough as to not understand much of what is shown and discussed over there, sorry...

 

[pozz]

Hi, thanks, but Im afraid Im ignorant enough as to not understand much of what is shown and discussed over there, sorry...

It's a surprisingly clean D/A implementation (~84dB SINAD) for a 35-year old unit. So good as to embarrass a number of modern products.

 

[skymusic20]

And it may (most likely) perform as well as the day it was made. The OP states it plays anything he throws at it which is a very good sign.

My main reference machines are 30 years old and they test as well as they did in 1989. The only things I need to do to them are a new set of loading/mech belts, some general lubrication and inspection and test every 7 years or so.

Some brands are phenomenally reliable, others not so much.

Thanks!

Well, yes, you know, a friend of mine has this Onkyo DXC 390

https://eu.onkyo.com/en-GLOBAL/c/dx-c390/p/157369

That's a new unit bought in 2018 but it struggles with several CDs. If a CD is just a bit dusty the Onkyo refuses to play.. (To be fair, the problem is usually and easily -although not 100% always- solved by some quick and light cleaning the CD). It sometimes also struggles with CD-R home made CDs... (Not to mention it struggles a lot with CDs with some scratches)

The Sony struggles with none of them. It doesn't matter if it is a brand new CD made in 2020 or an old dusty somewhat scratched CD from 1986 bought used on a flea market....

Im sure my Sony was opened and got some service at some point during its life.
I can say this because I opened it and it looks pretty clean inside, I expected to see lots of dust and dirt but alas it is very clean inside.
I can see some fresh lubricant in the gears and rails.
Besides, it is obvious the metal case (the metal cover) was taken apart and it was painted using some paint sprayer. It was not a great painting job but it looks good enough.
I wonder if the laser assembly was replaced at some point?
The guy who sold me the unit says he did not serviced it and that he bought it used from someone else.
Anyway, it works great.

 

[skymusic20]

The 'old' CD players were generally more ergonomic than anything you can get today. You could isolate tracks and program them easily. Some would offer index programming (as if anyone used that!). The readouts actually told you stuff about disc timing, emphasis etc.

I think Technics made players that could 'scan' a CD for the loudest passage, making it easier to set your levels when you dubbed cassettes for you car. I know that feature will be important to everyone, today!

Seriously, if I was still playing CDs and had an old player, and if it still worked, I'd keep it until it stops doing that. I'm pretty sure (doing this from memory) that many of the higher end models sported digital out jacks. Optical or coax. If you have one of those, it is ready for your latest and greatest stand alone DAC, I guess.

You are right! I downloaded the manual and it shows tons of features:

You can see a nice led light matrix of up 20 tracks and see which one is playing and how many remain to be played.

You can see elapsed time, remaining time, by track, by CD, etc
You can fade in and fade out your tape recording
You can find the loudest part of a CD
You can assign a name to a CD
You can store the programmed playing order for a CD
You can preset the desired volume level for a CD
It comes with a DSP for several effects. Ok, I know this is not a HiFi good idea and DSP effects are usually very much disliked but it was a funny thing to have back in the 90s. It brings fond memories of me just experimenting for fun back in those days.

Ok, I understand much of what it brings is unimportant in these days but the big display with a lot of information is certainly a great thing. Specially the nice 20 squares matrix I love it as I can see which track is playing and how many remain to be played. Also, the time elapsed and time remaining is great.

Oh and yes, it comes with a digital optical output so I can connect it to an external DAC or the DAC inside my receiver/amp. Im not doing that right now but it can be done.

And overall, I think Sony is a serious brand to be trusted.

 

[Angsty]

I also have an older CD changer (NAD) whose functions and remote I like, but I found that the sonics could be improved.

For about 100 dollars, you can buy an external SPDIF DAC, like the Schiit Modi 3, that well exceeds CD specifications to see if you like the difference. If you don’t hear a difference, the resale market for DACs is active on eBay, so your dollar loss would be minimized.

This in no way would impair or complicate the operation of the CD player, other than having to make sure the DAC is turned on when the CD player is running.

 

[Kaiede]

Modern CD players and turntables alike have suffered from lack of real interest. Good luck finding a modern CD changer for example. Onkyo produced the last one I was aware of, and that went out of stock after being discontinued a while back. When I was CD player shopping, I had a list of vintage models that I was interested in. The model you have wasn’t on my list, but it would have been if I was aware of it, or if I ran across it in a thrift store.

I only went modern myself for the customer support, aesthetics, my impatience on finding a good used model, and the fact that I tend to play CDs all the way through, so a limited feature set isn’t a problem. I’ve also got my CD drawers next to my CD player, so it’s not too inconvenient to swap discs when I’m listening while I read. I’ll still probably try to track down a nice vintage CD changer at some point though.

If you have something you like, keep it, treat it well.

 

[Angsty]

Modern CD players and turntables alike have suffered from lack of real interest. Good luck finding a modern CD changer for example.

Found one! The new 2021 Music Direct catalog contains the Yamaha CD-C600 five disc CD changer for $400. I may just ask Santa for one to have as a backup if my NAD dies.

 

[Beershaun]

Since you have an optical output, you could do an experiment yourself. Purchase one of the affordable top performing desktop dacs reviewed in this site and hook it up to the optical output and see if you can hear any difference playing them side by side. The topping e30 would be a good modern example to test with. Then let us know what you think.

 

[tvrgeek]

Older CDs were not that great. Even by the time my Rotel was made, one of the best sounding ever, it just barely equaled my Muse DAC. I am sure my Schiit would be really sweet on it, but I ripped all my CDs to a Windows server. If I want to play a physical CD, I use my OPPO. I liked the Rotel because it was FAST. I don't care how much processing is going on behind the scenes, if I say "open", it should open. Now. No excuse to think about it. Let it do the processing while I am walking away, not standing there with a disk!

I too only play full disks. I don't need screens, times or any other metadata. Currently using Windows Media player. ( Schiit Asgard)

FWIW, every stinking Sony I ever owned failed prematurely. Just like every HK. (3 for 3 and 2 for 2 respectively)

 

[Harmonie]

I have a 25y old EAD T-1000 transport with a inverted Pioneer mechanism and I enjoy it still as day 1.
Not a single issue if you take care of it (like any technical gear).

 

[wemist01]

Some of the late 90s Denon's have digital out. You could compare.

 

[Tigi]

This Sony CD player has a front label that says "PULSE D/A CONVERTER"
What does that mean?

As explained above, it is only the Sony´s marketing name for their 1-bit sigma-delta modulation DACs implemented at that time. Rivals from Philips promoted the term "Bitstream" for their DACs during this period. The "PULSE D/A CONVERTER" label/sticker reminds me of the Sony X779ES (with 2 x CXD2562Q – CXD2560M) which was wonderfully built, had a subjectively attractive, dynamic sound, but from today's point of view it probably cannot reach required standards for sound transparency.

 

[AnalogSteph]

The "PULSE D/A CONVERTER" label/sticker reminds me of the Sony X779ES (with 2 x CXD2562Q – CXD2560M) which was wonderfully built, had a subjectively attractive, dynamic sound, but from today's point of view it probably cannot reach required standards for sound transparency.

I wouldn't underestimate early/mid-'90s Sony CD players. By about '94, CD playback qualified as a solved problem. Stereophile measurements, while in parts archaic and hard to interpret, seem to indicate good performance for this model, certainly to the point of audible transparency.

 

[Doodski]

I have a 25y old EAD T-1000 transport with a inverted Pioneer mechanism and I enjoy it still as day 1.
Not a single issue if you take care of it (like any technical gear).

In my repair experience the Pioneer CD player mechanisms don't go through lasers and spindle motors like some others manufacturers do. That might explain why your unit is still in operating condition.