Old House with Bad Electrical

[Pareto Pragmatic]

What I mean by off grid is I can get a $800 300Ah batter and an $800 sine wave converter which is likely cheaper than anything requiring an electrician.

The cost of installing a dedicated line depends greatly on how much labor is involved. So if lines can easily be run in a basement to the point of the outlet, that will be a lot less money than if there is a lot of in wall work. Prices vary widely by location, but if you can describe the situation, you could get some estimates over the phone. At least know the range... if no problems crop up during install of course.

Back when I was renting, I would have gone with a beefy UPS most likely and called that good enough. Owning and faced with 100 year old wiring but with 200amp circuit breaker panel, I went a dedicated line.

 

[Gibsonian]

Root cause and correct source(s) of voltage sag before investing in hifi

 

[dedobot]

Now exist very good exposed mount electrical wiring systems (cables, holders,panel,outlets..)
Experienced electrician can do a small house in a day. With a ground and cfci (its a must). Most work will be diggin a hole for the grounding end plate/grill. With a friend in sherpa role I was able to fix my villa for 2-3 days. At cost of ~ $500 for materials and parts.
Have no idea of US house reconstructions prices but I imagine $2k must be enough for small 2-3 rooms house.

 

[Haflermichi]

I think it's very unlikely, possible, but unlikely that the home owner will do upgrades for you. But who knows? Can't hurt to ask.
I wouldn't be surprised if your rent goes up in some way however. That's just the way things go sometimes.
On the other hand maybe they've heard this complaint from prior renters and they finally decide to do something?

After all this discussion I also feel that you may be overestimating the potential for damage to a system.
I've your really serious about it get an outlet tester and test the outlets. If they're correct get a strip, preferably one without MOV's (ie:Zero Surge or SurgeX)
and simply try it out...you may be fine.

 

[EERecordist]

The house is a rental, so I'm reluctant to invest in the electrical at this point. The outlets measure about 117V, which I'm assuming is also what's coming into the panel. I have my computer on an APC Pro 1000 S to protect it from all the mess.

I have my headphone set up on a zero surge 8 outlet box, but I'm curious to check out the SurgeX strips that offer the under/over shutdown.

The panel is relatively new, with 15 and 20 amp breakers and a 200 amp service breaker, also a 220V circuit for the garage and another 200 for the dryer. The wiring inside the house is that old ceramic tubing and braided cable type. I met a guy I bought some furniture from in a similar house and he said when they moved in and installed security cameras that the cameras were fried within a few weeks.

I know things like motors from the washing machine may not just create sag but can induce voltage spikes, so my concern isn't entirely sag considering the washer makes every light (both hard wired to the ceiling and desk/floor lamps) blink.

In theory a PS Audio power regenerator seems like a good idea but it seems that Amir "debunked" these as creating more noise floor? I didn't get to digest that whole review.

Another idea was to create a mini offgrid solution, where I have a few large batteries hooked up to a AC converter. Then I could look for a particularly good AC converter vs whatever is default on your standard UPC or off grid package units like GoalZero . My APC Pro 1000 does have an improved sine wave technology over the cheaper models, but I wouldn't know if somethign like this would be capable to properly feeding a hifi system.

117V in itself is not terrible, the spec is 114V to 126V.

I think you are on the right track with a power pack like Goal Zero, Jackery, Bluetti (my choice), Ecoflow, Anker, or a reputable product available in your area. Check their UPS switchover time, the new Bluettis are very fast, claimed <1 millisecond. A power pack "pure sine wave" inverter is not that pure, so run it through an Eaton Isobar at a minimum.

Think through your grounding situation, which with "knob and tube wiring" is probably non-existant. At least you can connect some cheap solar panels to the power pack.

The old "knob and tube wiring" can be safe, other than not having a ground. If they replaced your outlets with 3 prong, get an outlet tester. It will show if the ground prong is even connected. It is required that the meter base, main panel, and sub panels be earth grounded for safety. Some US states are lax on electricians and cities lax inspecting electrical work.

In many towns, the local electric company will come out to inspect what you describe for free. The magic words are "I want to be sure there is not a safety problem" after describing what you observed here.

It may be the wire from the pole to your house or the meter base are not sized properly, or the wire gauge to large loads, like the dryer, water heater, or furnace are not sized properly, causing the flickering. It is also possible there are high impedance bad connections beyond the breaker which are a fire hazard.

I would also be sure your renter insurance is comprehensive up to total loss, document all your belongings, be sure you have smoke alarms with up-to-date batteries, and suggest familiarizing yourself with every word in the rental agreement and local renter law.

All that said, enjoy your music!

(I am not a licensed electrician and this is not professional advice)

 

[ash87]

Checked my APC UPS this morning when running the clothes iron, voltage dipped down to 108V. This evening I put the multimeter on the outlet where I plan to have the system, it's floating at 106-107V with the washer running. Goes up to 112V when the washer turns off. Ground to hot/neutral is 24V/8V ( I may have that backwards)

Saw a video with Dannie Richie at GR Research talking about how he runs his front end straight from DC batteries, just pulling out the power supply and wired the DC straight to the DAC and pre-amp. He doesn't do the amps, doesn't think batteries can offer enough available power for voltage fluctuations, but constant voltage devices are fair game there.

Good tip on calling local electrical company, didn't know they would do a free inspection.

 

[EERecordist]

Good tip on calling local electrical company, didn't know they would do a free inspection.

I cannot guarantee it would be a free inspection. Discuss before bringing them if the cost is too high for you. I would put in your call only flickering lights and fear for safety. That is all true.

They can measure everything, you don't need to mention your voltage measurements. Be the dumb customer, and make notes on/record everything they say when they inspect.

At the outlet, ground, in the US third prong, ground to neutral, should be 0V. I think if you open the outlet, the ground is not connected to anything.

Forget GR Research, they do not even comprehend your situation, they just want to sell. Before buying a power pack, contact their technical support to ensure they will work with that low mains voltage and the limitations of no ground.

 

[JSmith]

Sometimes the lights blink when it's windy outside.

When wind is strong or a certain direction? ... possibly loose service entrance connections or frayed wires moving with wind.


JSmith

 

[jayapple]

I don't know where you are. If the economic situation is okay, buy a BYD EV car.

Electric vehicles usually have a battery capacity of several tens of kilowatt-hours, and cars are necessities. Electric vehicles can also supply power externally, providing the purest electricity, which is perfect for listening to music!

I also saw a news report that someone used a BYD EV car to supply power for dialysis to save their child during a power outage. But the prerequisite is that you have a suitable place to charge. Your living situation surely doesn't allow for charging...

 

[BeeKay]

TBH I would be more worried about my or my family’s safety than about my audio equipment's in such a place. Such an installation should be checked or better replaced. Corroded probably twisted connections are a serious fire hazard assuming they date from such ancient times and materials used.

I would move out if things cannot be brought to a current standard. Audio would be my last priority.

 

[EERecordist]

When wind is strong or a certain direction? ... possibly loose service entrance connections or frayed wires moving with wind.


JSmith

JSmith is right. Very critical detail. The OP should definitely report that to the power company!

 

[ash87]

I appreciate all the concern for safety. You have all activated alarm bells in my head for looking at this from a safety standpoint.

 

[Roland68]

I appreciate all the concern for safety. You have all activated alarm bells in my head for looking at this from a safety standpoint.

What you need is a power conditioner/voltage stabilizer if the problem is that big.
However, I would also have the power company check everything first and perhaps also get an additional opinion from a specialist company, such as one that installs power supplies for industrial facilities or IT server rooms.

Please only purchase power conditioners/voltage stabilizers from reputable and experienced companies and not from audio companies.

 

[chelgrian]

TBH I would be more worried about my or my family’s safety than about my audio equipment's in such a place. Such an installation should be checked or better replaced. Corroded probably twisted connections are a serious fire hazard assuming they date from such ancient times and materials used.

I would move out if things cannot be brought to a current standard. Audio would be my last priority.

In the UK it would be illegal to rent out such a property, the landlord has to do a fixed electrical inspection called an EICR and have any deficiencies rectified.

I expect that regulations are not as stringent where the OP is though.

 

[BeeKay]

In the UK it would be illegal to rent out such a property, the landlord has to do a fixed electrical inspection called an EICR and have any deficiencies rectified.

I expect that regulations are not as stringent where the OP is though.

It's similar here. As a landlord, I am obliged to have regular e-checks carried out and ensure that the electrical system complies with current safety standards. These checks serve to ensure the safety of tenants and help to identify and rectify potential hazards at an early stage.

 

[Devnull]

Checked my APC UPS this morning when running the clothes iron, voltage dipped down to 108V. This evening I put the multimeter on the outlet where I plan to have the system, it's floating at 106-107V with the washer running. Goes up to 112V when the washer turns off. Ground to hot/neutral is 24V/8V ( I may have that backwards)

Saw a video with Dannie Richie at GR Research talking about how he runs his front end straight from DC batteries, just pulling out the power supply and wired the DC straight to the DAC and pre-amp. He doesn't do the amps, doesn't think batteries can offer enough available power for voltage fluctuations, but constant voltage devices are fair game there.

Good tip on calling local electrical company, didn't know they would do a free inspection.

Your voltage is not even close to the North American standard. Should be 114V minimum. Call the power company and tell them your lights flicker when it's windy.

 

[antcollinet]

but wouldn't it "do something" if the voltage coming out of the outlet is bouncing up and down with the rythm of a washing machine?

Unlikely - unless the instability is enough to cause your audio gear to trip out or reset.

Bear in mind the power supply in your gear takes a very high voltage and turns it into a much lower one. In most good designs, the mains supply would have to drop to very low levels before the PSU were unable to maintain the low voltage output.