Old House with Bad Electrical

[ash87]

In a 100 year old house with 100 year old electrical wiring:
All the lights in the house blink when the washing machine is on.
When the toaster oven in the kitchen kicks on the stove exhaust fan slows down.
Sometimes the lights blink when it's windy outside.

I'm kind of freaked to put in a hi-fi system.

What gear can I get to protect my system and ensure it is working 100%? Running a new circuit and upgrading the electrical panel is not an option.

Thank you!

 

[kyuu]

Sounds like you're getting some serious voltage sag. Whether it would be an issue and what you need to do about it depends on just how low the voltage is drooping. Do you have a multimeter you can use test it, or can you obtain one?

Generally speaking, voltage sag shouldn't put any of your equipment in danger of getting damaged. An extremely low voltage would likely just cause the device to not operate, or perhaps exhibit unusual (but generally not harmful) behavior. Most power supplies these days can tolerate a fairly wide voltage range without ill effect.

I don't suppose getting an electrician to check things out and possibly recommend some upgrades is in the cards?

 

[voodooless]

The question is where the sag comes from. It could already be from the feed-in. I would first measure there and see if it’s measurable, and how much. There are usually lower and upper thresholds for voltages from the utilities. If they are exceeded you should have them fix that first.

 

[digitalfrost]

Cleanest solution would be an always-on UPS. However, most of them are made for industrial use and have loud fans. A line interactive UPS would be quiet unless in use, but the question is if it would kick in at all.

 

[kyuu]

Cleanest solution would be an always-on UPS. However, most of them are made for industrial use and have loud fans. A line interactive UPS would be quiet unless in use, but the question is if it would kick in at all.

Typical line-interactive UPSes will engage the voltage boost circuit at a certain threshold and then, if the voltage drops lower than what the boost circuit can compensate for, it should switch to the battery.

 

[Mort]

If you were my goldenear'd dad (RIP) you would put in a new 220 circuit just for his dual Spectral DMA-360 amps.

Because noise floor.

 

[Haflermichi]

You have two questions: "Protect my system" and "ensure that it's running 100%"
I agree that damage is unlikely due to under voltage conditions, which it clearly sounds like the case here.
But considering the vintage of the wiring there is no telling what other fault conditions may be happening.
If you want to "protect" your system I use SurgeX strips which offer under/over voltage shut down.
But in terms of "running 100%" you may be stuck with the amperage service of the existing house panel.
Most UPS run modified sine wave outputs off batteries and only when wall voltage goes away so not practical to me to
run an audio system in my opinion.
Just for knowledge sake you can always buy an inexpensive outlet tester to check basic hookups and I would also
be curious about the panel itself. Is it running fuses or circuit breakers? What are the fuse/breaker ratings? 15 or 20 amp?
Do you know the service amperage...? etc.

 

[ash87]

The house is a rental, so I'm reluctant to invest in the electrical at this point. The outlets measure about 117V, which I'm assuming is also what's coming into the panel. I have my computer on an APC Pro 1000 S to protect it from all the mess.

I have my headphone set up on a zero surge 8 outlet box, but I'm curious to check out the SurgeX strips that offer the under/over shutdown.

The panel is relatively new, with 15 and 20 amp breakers and a 200 amp service breaker, also a 220V circuit for the garage and another 200 for the dryer. The wiring inside the house is that old ceramic tubing and braided cable type. I met a guy I bought some furniture from in a similar house and he said when they moved in and installed security cameras that the cameras were fried within a few weeks.

I know things like motors from the washing machine may not just create sag but can induce voltage spikes, so my concern isn't entirely sag considering the washer makes every light (both hard wired to the ceiling and desk/floor lamps) blink.

In theory a PS Audio power regenerator seems like a good idea but it seems that Amir "debunked" these as creating more noise floor? I didn't get to digest that whole review.

Another idea was to create a mini offgrid solution, where I have a few large batteries hooked up to a AC converter. Then I could look for a particularly good AC converter vs whatever is default on your standard UPC or off grid package units like GoalZero . My APC Pro 1000 does have an improved sine wave technology over the cheaper models, but I wouldn't know if somethign like this would be capable to properly feeding a hifi system.

 

[Audio Science Pal]

In a 100 year old house with 100 year old electrical wiring:
All the lights in the house blink when the washing machine is on.

There is most likely a loose or corroded wire connection. Maybe the property owner can have an electrician check it out.

 

[Haflermichi]

I think going "off grid" is overkill for an audio system unless it is low draw like headphones only. But if it floats your boat...$$$
For computers and such I also have APC ups but have never considered them for audio because of limited duration and that is not their intended use.

Surgex SX-1115 RT (8 outlets) offer under/over voltage shut down if you're interested in researching them.

When you say lights "blink" do you mean dim once, or the lights literally blink multiple times? Not clear here.
It is odd you are experiencing sag with a 200 amp service. The weak link sounds like wiring and/or mis-wired outlets.
Get an outlet tester (<$30?) and check all your outlets just to rule out mis-wires.

In our current 200 amp-service house we encountered mis-wired outlets (reversed neutral, I think) which caused lamps to flicker and quickly burn out bulbs.
I noticed on these outlets someone had placed tiny red dot stickers that corresponded exactly to the outlet tester reading.
I fixed the wiring on those outlets and all was well.
On the other hand our living room lights will dim for a second when I hear our neighbor's AC kick in.
I consider it very odd that nothing in our house will cause this but our neighbor, on a different street will...!?

The only time I experienced issues exactly like yours was in our 1950's house on 60 amp service and fuses.

 

[ash87]

When the washing machine motor is running, the lights flicker with the rhythm of the agitator. Thing is it's not just one outlet, it's every light in the entire house both hard wired and plugged into an outlet. Also happens when electric toaster over turns on the heating cycle, all the lights go dimmer until the cycle kicks off, then the lights get brighter.

What I mean by off grid is I can get a $800 300Ah batter and an $800 sine wave converter which is likely cheaper than anything requiring an electrician.

It wouldn't surprise me if corroded wires are an issue. Parts of the house have grounded outlets so I expect things only get fixed when they go into full disrepair.

Everyone here recommend against the PS Audio Power Regenerator?

 

[kyuu]

Everyone here recommend against the PS Audio Power Regenerator?

Yes, there's no need for something like that. The review didn't show that it does nothing, but rather that what it does makes no difference to the downstream equipment. The power supplies for the equipment already have filtering that renders that kind of thing irrelevant and not worth the expense.

Using a battery and inverter (though a refurbished UPS would be the cheapest and easiest route) would be more cost efficient and avoid any issues with voltage sag or spikes affecting your system.

 

[AnalogSteph]

In a 100 year old house with 100 year old electrical wiring:
All the lights in the house blink when the washing machine is on.
When the toaster oven in the kitchen kicks on the stove exhaust fan slows down.

That's some severely undersized wiring or a poor connection going on. The stuff is, after all, 100 years old, so you can't rule out anything.

Sometimes the lights blink when it's windy outside.

The perks of overhead power wires... You may be able to spot arcing visually or with a small AM radio.

So, have you met Casper the ghost yet?

The wiring inside the house is that old ceramic tubing and braided cable type.

So this?

Knob-and-tube wiring - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sounds super inductive. I guess you don't have any grounded outlets either then?

These kinds of stories from 120 V land always baffle me. Hasn't anyone been living in the place in the last, oh, 40 years or so? There should have been ample opportunity to redo the wiring.

The outlets measure about 117V, which I'm assuming is also what's coming into the panel.

What happens if you turn on an electric space heater in the same or another room?

It wouldn't surprise me if corroded wires are an issue. Parts of the house have grounded outlets so I expect things only get fixed when they go into full disrepair.

At least those parts should no longer have K&T wiring. Sure sound like the classic case of privately owned real estate that's being nursed along on a shoestring budget.

You could definitely do worse than having an electrician look the whole mess over.

 

[Haflermichi]

That's a bummer. Dimming then brightening shouldn't be happening in the "entire house" with properly structured and loaded 200 amp service.
What you are describing would imply very few branches.
The house is 100 years old but remodeled, and only some outlets grounded? There are almost certainly some wiring "anomalies".

 

[RickS]

My son’s house is about the same age as yours. Local codes required that the kitchen and bathrooms have GFI protection. His house is now a hybrid of a contemporary distribution panel and the original one. Ofc, most of the appliances are also powered via the new box. Your audio could be too…

In any case, be careful that the right size fuses are in the distribution panel. Oversizing them can overheat the lines and cause an electrical fire. Because of this, insurance companies may deny insurance on an older home. Would encourage you to get an estimate or two.

 

[DVinylfan]

In a 100 year old house with 100 year old electrical wiring:
All the lights in the house blink when the washing machine is on.
When the toaster oven in the kitchen kicks on the stove exhaust fan slows down.
Sometimes the lights blink when it's windy outside.

I'm kind of freaked to put in a hi-fi system.

What gear can I get to protect my system and ensure it is working 100%? Running a new circuit and upgrading the electrical panel is not an option.

Thank you!

Contact your landlord/letting agent and advise them of their responsibility for providing an adequate and safe electrical supply in the property you've rented.
Given the issues you're describing, your priority is not mitigating against them to install a hi-fi system, but ensuring the safety and well-being of you and your family.

 

[ash87]

At this point it feels like Casper the ghost is my roommate. Yes, it's that knob and tube type, with some updated grounded outlets. Definitely a hodgepdge of doing the bare minimum on a rental. I've lived here less than a year and already had appx. 20 visits by contractors to fix things. Convincing the property owner to revamp the electrical is going to be a long shot but not totally out of the question. I'm mainly wanting to see what actions I can take now to listen to my system now. Surge protection is a must, and I believe my ZeroSurge should be OK for that, although a SurgeX may be worth it for the cutoff feature. The PS Audio Powerplant in theory seems like a solution as does implementing a couple LiFePO4 batters and a pure sine wave inverter. I'm sure there's drawbacks here too, the power plant doesn't seem to be a popular this side of town. For a battery system, I see some folks still putting conditioners on the line after the inverter.

 

[kyuu]

Ok... it seems like you're really stuck on the idea of a power conditioner. Once again, that will do nothing for you whether you're on the mains or off an inverter. Audiophiles do all sorts of silly things that aren't supported by evidence or even logic. Dunno what else to tell you.

 

[ash87]

Ok... it seems like you're really stuck on the idea of a power conditioner. Once again, that will do nothing for you whether you're on the mains or off an inverter. Audiophiles do all sorts of silly things that aren't supported by evidence or even logic. Dunno what else to tell you.

A conditioner isn't the same as a re-generator. The power plant is designed to provide a steady 120V sine wave to my equipment, even as the lights in my house are blinking when the washing machine is on.

I can understand from Amir's review, the regenerator "didn't do anything" but in one respect his testing (at least from what I can tell) wasn't performed while running a stereo speaker system that is putting significant load on the electrical circuitry. If he had hooked the powerplant up to a serious floor stander stereo and blasted Daft Punk then ran comparison tests we may have a different review all together (maybe turn on the the washer and dryer, a tv or two, and someone run a hair dryer).

Maybe a regenerator like the power plant doesn't "do anything" when your grid and home are quiet and you are getting a steady 120V, but wouldn't it "do something" if the voltage coming out of the outlet is bouncing up and down with the rythm of a washing machine?

 

[HalSF]

My slightly alarmed reaction centers way more on safely living here and surviving unburnt and way less on clean power for my hi-fi.

I’d plug in my music system and just play it. But I might also have trouble sleeping unless an electrician told me the wiring set up meets code and isn’t a serious risk.