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Old Formula 1 video. Nearly an hour long so only watch if you are interested in fairly historic F1. May be spoiled for some by me being in it

carlob

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Funny, last time I was in your home town I noticed they had a very different idea about motorsport!
View attachment 64839 View attachment 64840
LOL, that's an historic car now I think.

F1 is an Italian and British thing since the beginning, even now (now is 90% British). In the region where Ferrari has its HQ there are Lamborghini, Minardi (they sold the team to Red Bull and became Toro Rosso and now Alpha Tauri), Dallara (they make the Haas F1 chassis and all the Indycars), Maserati, Ducati, Pagani and many more, not to mention Alfa Romeo - which is not in Emilia Romagna - and Pininfarina.

Not to mention the suppliers like Brembo for brakes or Marelli, Pirelli tyres, too many to remember. In the video FW is calling a "Giancarlo", speaking in Italian, he says he's sending a telex. It could be Giancarlo Minardi. Not many will remember what a telex was.
 
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carlob

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Even Mercedes is all but German, it's the old BAR -> Honda F1 -> Brawn GP ->Mercedes, always been in Brackley. The only historic constructors surviving are Williams, McLaren and Ferrari. Red Bull is the old Jaguar team (which was the Jackie Stewart team before Ford) in Milton Keynes. Renault is the old Lotus team, etc.
 
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rebbiputzmaker

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Thank you Fred that
Thank you Frank for the video it was very enjoyable. I was a racing and car junkie growing up and marveled at the technology .

Onwned 65 mustangs before they became collectible. Rebuilt the transmission removing Synchro teeth, lowered upper A arm mounting points to improve handling and rebuild my own engines. Yes I was kind of nuts. LOL.

You are famous, aerodynamics revolutionized racing. Without the advances there was no way to apply the amazing horsepower and attain the speeds in the modern cars.
 

Xulonn

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Great subject, great responses. Thank you Frank - and everyone else. Within the past couple of months, I watched both the Williams and Ferrari racing documentaries from 2017, and this video and Frank's comments in this thread are a nice addition to fond memories of my race spectator experiences.

My introduction to auto racing was a bit less sophisticated than F1. When I was young, there were many racetracks in the Chicago. I remember the three racetracks that I visited in the summer of 1960 to watch the stock cars prepared and driven by local "guys and their buddies" just after graduating from high school and before headng off to college.

My first race was at the 1/4 mile Santa Fe Speedway in Willow Springs, a clay track that they would wet down before the races. I still remember an old Buick with its famous inline straight-eight engine losing a tire, and the steel wheel rim carved up big chunks of wet clay and tossed them over the fence into the crowd. Ironically, the pop "rock - death" song "Tell Laura I Love Her" was beginning its climb to #7 on the U.S. charts, and they played it over the PA system as we left after the races. (The same song by another singer reached #1 on the UK charts later that year.)

The second was Raceway Park - a 1/4 mile flat asphalt track if I remember correctly, near Ashland Avenue in Calumet where I watched one forgettable evening of stock car racing. This track was where future Indy 500 great started his career racing open-wheel midget racers.

And finally, I went to another forgettable evening of racing at O'Hare Raceway, a banked 1/4 mile oval track just south of the current lcation of O'Hare Airport. Fred Lorentzen, future NASCAR star, got his start there.

Starting few years later during my Navy days while stationed at the SF Bay Area's Oakland Naval Hospital - and over the next 40 years in that region, I attended many auto races, starting with a small time drag race event at the Half Moon Bay Airport. Just local racers with up to AA Gas class dragsters and no AA Fuel class cars. Later, I started going to the Fremont Drag Strip where I once met and spoke with the legendary Don Garlits. I also once drove to Southern California for a weekend an all-Corvette drag meet at the old Orange County Dragstrip with over 400 Corvettes at the event. I always spent the extra for "pit-passes" when they were available to enjoy wandering around watching the racing crews do their work and occasionally talk to drivers and mechanics.

One Sunday in the eary 1960s I drove to Sonoma County to attend a local SCCA club-type sports car road race at a little decomissioned WWII military training air field near Cotati, and after that I was hooked on road racing for life. Even my only Nascar race was a road race - at Riverside Raceway in 1965 where AJ Foyt in the 00 Ford lost his brakes near the end of the race, flipped end-over-end several times, and was almost killed. But by the time of the accident, we had left to return to Northern California, because I was still in the Navy and had to "on duty" at my hospital job at 7am. Many years later, I went to the Long Beach Indy Car Race and was able to speak with Dutch driver Arie Luyendyk in the pits, an event that was held on a vourse laid out on the beach parking lot, and not up the hill on the Long Beach city streets.

During the 50 years that I lived in California, I attended both historic and contemporary road races at Sears Point and Laguna Seca, and many autocross events with the Northern California Corvette Club, although I did not race myself. In the 1990s I watched a couple of seasons of live Formula One events on cable TV, and had to be up before five AM. I've always enjoyed British race announcers, who would typically say something like "lets stop talking for a bit, and you can turn up the volume as we start the race." But their turn-by-turn descriptions, and the interviews with drivers and pit personnel, were usually far more relevant and intelligent than American auto race commentators.

 
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LOL, that's an historic car now I think.

F1 is an Italian and British thing since the beginning, even now (now is 90% British). In the region where Ferrari has its HQ there are Lamborghini, Minardi (they sold the team to Red Bull and became Toro Rosso and now Alpha Tauri), Dallara (they make the Haas F1 chassis and all the Indycars), Maserati, Ducati, Pagani and many more, not to mention Alfa Romeo - which is not in Emilia Romagna - and Pininfarina.

Not to mention the suppliers like Brembo for brakes or Marelli, Pirelli tyres, too many to remember. In the video FW is calling a "Giancarlo", speaking in Italian, he says he's sending a telex. It could be Giancarlo Minardi. Not many will remember what a telex was.
Of course Fiat are in Turin, as is the Italian National Automobile Museum, where I took the first two pictures posted above. It’s an amazing place, especially the hall full of Lancia rally cars. We’ve been on many holidays driving around Italy and have popped into Maranello, which was quite something. Once drove back to London from Florence, getting too old for that.
 
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DChenery

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The two first order things are the shape and magnitude of the aero/rideheight map - the aero is spectacularly sensitive to small changes in the height of the car above the ground (down 1mm front ~0.1 seconds per lap if you can achieve it, or it was)
Plus the tyre temperature. Friction is super sensitive to temperature but the best grip is just before it starts to be destroyed so getting the tyre in the best temperature range for as much of the grip-limited time as possible without damaging them by overheating makes a B-I-G difference.
Frank: I just started reading what seems to be (so far but I'm only 3 Chapters in) a brilliant book by one of your "Rivals" - Adrian Newey. When are you going to write something similar? You must have a million tales to tell.

I bought this book as I remember an answer to a question that Martin Brundle asked Alonzo, where after getting basically blown off the track by the Red Bull Alonzo said something like: It's not Seb who's beating me, its Adrian Newey. It was the first (and last) time that I can ever remember a driver giving this type of credit to a designer.
 
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Frank Dernie

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Frank: I just started reading what seems to be (so far but I'm only 3 Chapters in) a brilliant book by one of your "Rivals" - Adrian Newey. When are you going to write something similar? You must have a million tales to tell.

I bought this book as I remember an answer to a question that Martin Brundle asked Alonzo, where after getting basically blown off the track by the Red Bull Alonzo said something like: It's not Seb who's beating me, its Adrian Newey. It was the first (and last) time that I can ever remember a driver giving this type of credit to a designer.
Adrian was my replacement at Williams after they operated for a couple of seasons without anybody in the role so I know him well but never worked with him.
I started writing a book but am too lazy.
The idea was to make it technical but add interest for the non-technical by illustrative anecdotes. Also not all technical methods wash (I have the same opinion on the speaker preference and obsessive SINAD evangelism amongst less experienced members here).
2 examples:-
1. James Hunt Silverstone 1975 (when I was working for Hesketh Racing part time). James came into the pits saying he could go quicker in Woodcote, then a super fast right hander, if the rear of the car felt more stable so could we soften the rear anti-roll bar? Harvey, the designer, pointed out it was full-soft already but one of the mechanics said, OK I'll take it off and turn it down a bit in the truck. Now this was a design for which this was impossible for several reasons so the mechanic just took it away, waited a while then re-fitted it and said "I think you will find it is OK now". James went out and did Woodcote flat out. That taught me a lot.
2. Williams at Brazil 2004. Then it was I the experienced old hand... By this time lap simulation programmes had become of biblical importance. I possibly wrote the first one in 1982, but am still sceptical of the modelling since the 2 first order effects I mentioned up-thread, IMO, are not sufficiently well modelled, or certainly were not then. The procedure used was to do a simulation and put the settings it came up with on the car. After the first running the rear tyre degradation was bad. I suggested more rear downforce and got abuse about the sim showing it was slower and overtaking on the straight etc.. Luckily I had worked with Juan-Pablo Montoya when he drove a Lola in CHAMP cars and he was happy to give it a try. Not only did the car no longer damage its tyres as much the traction was so much better out of the slow corner onto the straight his top speed was no worse. If we had foillowed the simulation we definitely would not have won the race.
Also I have found that people have fixed ideas and get annoyed if they are contested by facts and there are a lot of "facts" in F1, and probably life in general, which were manipulated into position by good marketing at the time rather than being true which are now so embedded in fans' beliefs that putting the record straight is unwelcome.
 

rebbiputzmaker

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Adrian was my replacement at Williams after they operated for a couple of seasons without anybody in the role so I know him well but never worked with him.
I started writing a book but am too lazy.
The idea was to make it technical but add interest for the non-technical by illustrative anecdotes. Also not all technical methods wash (I have the same opinion on the speaker preference and obsessive SINAD evangelism amongst less experienced members here).
2 examples:-
1. James Hunt Silverstone 1975 (when I was working for Hesketh Racing part time). James came into the pits saying he could go quicker in Woodcote, then a super fast right hander, if the rear of the car felt more stable so could we soften the rear anti-roll bar? Harvey, the designer, pointed out it was full-soft already but one of the mechanics said, OK I'll take it off and turn it down a bit in the truck. Now this was a design for which this was impossible for several reasons so the mechanic just took it away, waited a while then re-fitted it and said "I think you will find it is OK now". James went out and did Woodcote flat out. That taught me a lot.
2. Williams at Brazil 2004. Then it was I the experienced old hand... By this time lap simulation programmes had become of biblical importance. I possibly wrote the first one in 1982, but am still sceptical of the modelling since the 2 first order effects I mentioned up-thread, IMO, are not sufficiently well modelled, or certainly were not then. The procedure used was to do a simulation and put the settings it came up with on the car. After the first running the rear tyre degradation was bad. I suggested more rear downforce and got abuse about the sim showing it was slower and overtaking on the straight etc.. Luckily I had worked with Juan-Pablo Montoya when he drove a Lola in CHAMP cars and he was happy to give it a try. Not only did the car no longer damage its tyres as much the traction was so much better out of the slow corner onto the straight his top speed was no worse. If we had foillowed the simulation we definitely would not have won the race.
Also I have found that people have fixed ideas and get annoyed if they are contested by facts and there are a lot of "facts" in F1, and probably life in general, which were manipulated into position by good marketing at the time rather than being true which are now so embedded in fans' beliefs that putting the record straight is unwelcome.
That is really a great post thank you! :) That is so true. It is important to apply the science, not just take it for granted. So much can change when you actually put the theory into practice.
 
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Frank Dernie

Frank Dernie

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That is really a great post thank you! :) That is so true. It is important to apply the science, not just take it for granted. So much can change when you actually put the theory into practice.
Well in the case of electronics the science and measuring the result is sufficiently straightforward and well known I don't think there is room for controversy, apart, perhaps, on the level of performance perfection required, and the only place the ouput occurs is at the electrical terminals so we know where to take the measurements.
In the case of a loudspeaker in a room the situation is so complex coming up with a single preference number is as inappropriate and prone to missing key issues as the F1 car simulation is. It is good and gives good direction but by no means perfect or something to be relied on completely IMO.
 

fredoamigo

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could have made a parallel of the Aerodynamics in Formula 1 with the acoustics of the room in audio where one is more complex and primordial than the other?
 
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Frank Dernie

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Thread Starter #135
could have made a parallel of the Aerodynamics in Formula 1 with the acoustics of the room in audio where one is more complex and primordial than the other?
I know how complex the aero of a F1 car is, and how few people have any idea about it.
Room acoustics is not my field and I have zero experience in it.
Noise and vibration research was my job before F1 and I have an understanding of the physics but zero recent modelling experience, though I have good friends that do and have been involved in several evaluations which lead me to be sceptical about some of what I have read here as "fact" when it is the current conclusion of some experienced people of unfinished/incomplete studies.
 
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Frank Dernie

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Thread Starter #136
It was the first (and last) time that I can ever remember a driver giving this type of credit to a designer.
Ha-ha it doesn't happen often!
I used to explain to young engineers that there are good drivers and bad cars :)
Mostly if the driver wins it is all down to him but if he doesn't the car is sh1t.
I have had drivers give me a pat on the back but not in public.
I have the 1985 Australian GP trophy given to me by Keke Rosberg who said "you won that not me" because of an off-the-wall setup I had come up with.
Sadly I can report that the same idea did not work in 1986 because the tyres were different...
 

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Ha-ha it doesn't happen often!
I used to explain to young engineers that there are good drivers and bad cars :)
Mostly if the driver wins it is all down to him but if he doesn't the car is sh1t.
I have had drivers give me a pat on the back but not in public.
I have the 1985 Australian GP trophy given to me by Keke Rosberg who said "you won that not me" because of an off-the-wall setup I had come up with.
Sadly I can report that the same idea did not work in 1986 because the tyres were different...
That is a touching gesture.
 
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Frank Dernie

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Thread Starter #138
That is a touching gesture.
It is my proudest possesion.
Keke is a great person and a spectacular driver to watch.
I remember Fred Opert, for whom he drove Formula Atlanic in the US, telling me after a race win where he had straight lined chicanes as much as he could using the kerbs all 4 wheels were so badly bent they wer brushing the brake calipers.
 

Soniclife

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Ha-ha it doesn't happen often!
I used to explain to young engineers that there are good drivers and bad cars :)
Mostly if the driver wins it is all down to him but if he doesn't the car is sh1t.
It seems part of the modern post victory radio message ritual to always thank the team, and complement the car, Lewis and Seb do it a lot, how much of that is natural to them and how much is them managing the team for their own ends would be interesting to know.
 
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Frank Dernie

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Thread Starter #140
how much is them managing the team for their own ends would be interesting to know.
Probably in their contract.
Ron Dennis started it at McLaren back in the 1980s because he was pissed off with drivers sometimes slagging off the team straight after then race for something that turned out later to be unavoidable but had then been broadcast.
 

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