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Old Formula 1 video. Nearly an hour long so only watch if you are interested in fairly historic F1. May be spoiled for some by me being in it

Soniclife

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The thing about F1 I don't understand is how McLaren reunited with Honda failed with these new engine regulations.

The red bull managed to suffer a bad engine and still have albeit limited success but McLaren just drop to nowhere.
Mclaren didn't realise their car was awful, as well as the engine, when they swapped to the Renault engine they found that out. They had also insisted Honda make the engine really small, size zero packaging or something, but when the Honda was swapped to Red Bull they eased the requirement so that years engine was better, plus RB have a very good car.
 

Thomas savage

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Mclaren didn't realise their car was awful, as well as the engine, when they swapped to the Renault engine they found that out. They had also insisted Honda make the engine really small, size zero packaging or something, but when the Honda was swapped to Red Bull they eased the requirement so that years engine was better, plus RB have a very good car.
Yeah in my lemons ( this is how auto dictate interprets layman's , it will be so much better if every time amir wrote that which he does quite often it would be written as lemons ) understanding red bull had the best car aerodynamic wise . Plus they have Geri halliwell, that's worth half a second a lap in any mans measure, you gotta be quick to hold on to her.
 
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Frank Dernie

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The two first order things are the shape and magnitude of the aero/rideheight map - the aero is spectacularly sensitive to small changes in the height of the car above the ground (down 1mm front ~0.1 seconds per lap if you can achieve it, or it was)
Plus the tyre temperature. Friction is super sensitive to temperature but the best grip is just before it starts to be destroyed so getting the tyre in the best temperature range for as much of the grip-limited time as possible without damaging them by overheating makes a B-I-G difference.
 

Feargal

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Mclaren didn't realise their car was awful, as well as the engine, when they swapped to the Renault engine they found that out. They had also insisted Honda make the engine really small, size zero packaging or something, but when the Honda was swapped to Red Bull they eased the requirement so that years engine was better, plus RB have a very good car.

McLaren somewhat shot themselves in the foot by originally demanding exclusivity to the Honda engine, meaning they were effectively the only team and were therefore the sole beta testers for a season or two. I understand they may have also been somewhat optimistic in the packaging of the engine, hoping that one of its key benefts, its small size, would provide an advantage but which unfortunately led to cooling issues. Perhaps some intransigence or desperation in refusing to compromise there. I've been a fan of McLaren for most of my F1 viewing life but their decision making lately seem to have been rather baffling. Great chassis though (apparently).
 
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Frank Dernie

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Well Jenson button and Ross brawn racing had that car advantage, in memory it's the last time a constructor stole such a march on everyone else.
The Mercedes has had a marked advantage for the whole of the hybrid engine era, probably bigger than the Brawn had that year, though the others were busy shooting themselves in the feet in Jenson's year.
 

Thomas savage

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The two first order things are the shape and magnitude of the aero/rideheight map - the aero is spectacularly sensitive to small changes in the height of the car above the ground (down 1mm front ~0.1 seconds per lap if you can achieve it, or it was)
Plus the tyre temperature. Friction is super sensitive to temperature but the best grip is just before it starts to be destroyed so getting the tyre in the best temperature range for as much of the grip-limited time as possible without damaging them by overheating makes a B-I-G difference.
Do you think in modern F1 they can load the tyre to optimum grip and then unload when the situation is appropriate to elongate the life cycle of the tyre. As a viewer it just seems to me now it's all about the tire how the driver managers the tire and how the chassis and car can be manipulated in race to suit tyre conditions.

this might have always been the case but with the TV coverage as it is we all now know about it and it just seems to be all consuming.

Personally I find it a bit of a distraction and the cynical use of tired degradation to try and inject drama into races, well I don't like that either .
 

Soniclife

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I've been a fan of McLaren for most of my F1 viewing life but their decision making lately seem to have been rather baffling.
It's amazing how much better they got once they didn't have to manage Alonso, his ego and his mouth, Ron wasn't helping either, if we get a season this year it will be good if they can improve on last year.
 

Thomas savage

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The Mercedes has had a marked advantage for the whole of the hybrid engine era, probably bigger than the Brawn had that year, though the others were busy shooting themselves in the feet in Jenson's year.
With the way formula 1 has been and evolved can one individual really change things like they may have done 20 years ago?

As a fan whether it be the driver designer or team owner the idea there was one genius 1 galvanising force was the deciding factor even if maybe it wasn't ever true it was a seductive and involving idea and force towards fandom.
 
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Frank Dernie

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Do you think in modern F1 they can load the tyre to optimum grip and then unload when the situation is appropriate to elongate the life cycle of the tyre. As a viewer it just seems to me now it's all about the tire how the driver managers the tire and how the chassis and car can be manipulated in race to suit tyre conditions.

this might have always been the case but with the TV coverage as it is we all now know about it and it just seems to be all consuming.

Personally I find it a bit of a distraction and the cynical use of tired degradation to try and inject drama into races, well I don't like that either .
There is nothing new about the tyre importance, what is new is even the journalists know it now.
Tyres always degraded though the Pirellis were always worst IME.
Keeping the tyres in the optimum window was always crucial, like keeping the engine in its optimum window.
There are a lot of balls one has to keep in the air.
Giving the driver confidence is one of them :)
 

Soniclife

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The Mercedes has had a marked advantage for the whole of the hybrid engine era, probably bigger than the Brawn had that year, though the others were busy shooting themselves in the feet in Jenson's year.
Even in 2018? It looked to me that Ferrari had the best car that year, but conspired against themselves, where Mercedes keep doing everything right as a team to maximise their results.
 

Thomas savage

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There is nothing new about the tyre importance, what is new is even the journalists know it now.
Tyres always degraded though the Pirellis were always worst IME.
Keeping the tyres in the optimum window was always crucial, like keeping the engine in its optimum window.
There are a lot of balls one has to keep in the air.
Giving the driver confidence is one of them :)
Sorry to be a bore , but could it be a bit like a amp where how it deals or sounds when clipping, how the car responds to tyres when they're out of the performance window might feed back to the driver in a way that doesn't undermine his confidence as much as perhaps it could. So the whole falling off a cliff if mitigated might enthuse the driver and stop them reacting in a negative manner.

So the objective reality butts up against the psychology of the driver a bit like emotion of a subjective audio experience.
 

Feargal

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It strikes me another issue seems to be variation in tyre quality now from set to set. So often we see a car sent out on tyres which other teams or the sister car are performing well on, but it just looks like that car has a "bad" set. I realise there's ways tyres can be prepared, or of course the way a car with a particular setup handles fresh tyres to get them up to the optimum operating window, but I wonder whether there is a great variation quality from set to set?
 

Thomas savage

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Sorry to be a bore , but could it be a bit like a amp where how it deals or sounds when clipping, how the car responds to tyres when they're out of the performance window might feed back to the driver in a way that doesn't undermine his confidence as much as perhaps it could. So the whole falling off a cliff if mitigated might enthuse the driver and stop them reacting in a negative manner.

So the objective reality butts up against the psychology of the driver a bit like emotion of a subjective audio experience.
I had it edit this as auto dictate was clearly intimidated by Priti Patel.
 
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Frank Dernie

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With the way formula 1 has been and evolved can one individual really change things like they may have done 20 years ago?

As a fan whether it be the driver designer or team owner the idea there was one genius 1 galvanising force was the deciding factor even if maybe it wasn't ever true it was a seductive and involving idea and force towards fandom.
It is quite different now.
It is a big management project with huge numbers of people.
In 1986 at Williams I did all the aero work and had one tunnel technician and 2 model makers but I was also doing all the chassis setup at tests and developing the active suspension.
Today aero departments are ~120 people and somebody working on aero, even the chief, won't get much circuit time and won't be involved in any depth with the suspension dynamics either.
FE analysis, mechanical design and testing was all under Patrick Head and he literally knew every nut and bolt and got everything made on time and generally managed the whole company (Frank got the money in but did very little day to day management).
There are hundreds of people doing it now and when some people tried to get stuff through the workshop like Patrick used to do they were sacked for "bullying".
It ain't nothing like it used to be.
I feel like I was lucky to be involved when F1 was at its best, safe but innovative and competitive, but I am an old bloke looking through rose tinted specs probably.
 
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Frank Dernie

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Even in 2018? It looked to me that Ferrari had the best car that year, but conspired against themselves, where Mercedes keep doing everything right as a team to maximise their results.
Ferrari were too close that year to judge, probably flipped from one to the other depending on the development bits and how-close-to-legal tweaks.
 

Feargal

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It is quite different now.
It is a big management project with huge numbers of people.
In 1986 at Williams I did all the aero work and had one tunnel technician and 2 model makers but I was also doing all the chassis setup at tests and developing the active suspension.
Today aero departments are ~120 people and somebody working on aero, even the chief, won't get much circuit time and won't be involved in any depth with the suspension dynamics either.
FE analysis, mechanical design and testing was all under Patrick Head and he literally knew every nut and bolt and got everything made on time and generally managed the whole company (Frank got the money in but did very little day to day management).
There are hundreds of people doing it now and when some people tried to get stuff through the workshop like Patrick used to do they were sacked for "bullying".
It ain't nothing like it used to be.
I feel like I was lucky to be involved when F1 was at its best, safe but innovative and competitive, but I am an old bloke looking through rose tinted specs probably.

So are you in favour of big budget cuts Frank? It sounds like a very persuasive argument to go back to the days. (well you persuaded me anyway!).
 

Soniclife

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Ferrari were too close that year to judge, probably flipped from one to the other depending on the development bits and how-close-to-legal tweaks.
A proper development race, which is how it should be. Did it feel like you were in a development race on the inside?
 
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Frank Dernie

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A proper development race, which is how it should be. Did it feel like you were in a development race on the inside?
Definitely.
Back then the only limit was budget - we didn't have enough money to pursue every idea so it was important to be able to work out what was most important (IMO anyway).
Nowadays the money at Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes is no limit so everything can be looked into however small. Hence those awful bunch of chrysanthemum things we see poking out in front of the radiator intakes.
 

Soniclife

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Hence those awful bunch of chrysanthemum things we see poking out in front of the radiator intakes.
One of the things that struck me watching the old doc was the bloke making bits of bodywork with a wooden mallet, I'm sure the modern races would be much better if all the bodywork had to be made by one bloke using just a wooden mallet.
 

Soniclife

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Nowadays the money at Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes is no limit so everything can be looked into however small.
I can imagine that causes almost as many problems as if solves, keeping track of everyone's mad ideas must be draining on the guys at the top.
 
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