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Oil Change Intervals Objectively

thewas

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It's funny how the industry has us brainwashed to "every 3k miles" which was excessive with even conventional oil.
That is mainly an US thing though (also due to poorer fuel quality), here in Germany most modern car manufacturers give oil change intervals of 30.000 km (that is most 20.000 miles!) or 2 years and we are talking about a country with no speed limit highways and a high direct injection turbo diesel percentage (has someone seen how black the oil looks in these?) Also on the Mercedes V class van of my girlfriend the interval is even 40.000 km (I cut those intervals in half just for my subjective consciousness) and on the Sprinters trucks with the same diesel engines it is even 60.000 km and you see both exceeding 500.000 km with the first engines. The difference is though the oil temperature and oil capacity, the V class has almost 10 litres of oil and the Sprinter even more. That's why such fixed value rules like "every 3k miles" or "if the oil gets darker" are not expedient and have nothing to do here in an objective approach. Owners who want to do that should do some oil lab analysis at different intervals and normalise the wear particles on the mileage to find a "sweet spot". Also they should decide before how long do they plan to keep the vehicle and how long is the lifetime of the other components, for example it doesn't make really sense to try to optimise a car engine to last for 500.000 km if the gearbox, bodywork or other expensive to repair/replace parts won't last as long.
 

EJ3

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When the every 3000 miles became a standard the filters were not as good, the oil additives were not as good (oil itself doesn't wear out but gets compromised by various particles [metals from the engine, dirt from the air intake system {another filter that you may need to look into using a better than factory one}. condensation {which, in conjunction with combustion products, forms acids which first attack the softer metals such as bearings and which filers do not filter out}). Metals is true from wear in the final drive (which also may be part of a manual transmission/transaxle), metals & various softer materials which may clog valve body channels, are the problem in automatic transmissions/transaxles). All engines, transmissions, transaxles & final drives are vented to the atmosphere. If you see condensation on your vehicle, it is also in all of these things. This is why if a vehicle only takes 10 minute trips with time to cool down, it will have way more wear than ones that have much higher mileage.
So in addition to my annual oil/filter (if I change the oil, I also change the oil filter) changes, every 3rd time I do an oil change, I also change all the other fluids (including the antifreeze [and use distilled water if I have to mix it with water {to avoid electrolysis, which causes internal erosion of metal parts, caused by particulates in the water}].
With this regimen, even my highly tuned/modded cars have gone long times. Most of my vehicles have lasted 20 years & 200-300 thousand miles before I sold them (still in driving condition). Only one (a 1972 Mustang with a 351 Cleveland & FMX automatic), needed an engine & body restoration when I sold it. But it had well over 300,000 miles. I got it in 2003 & sold it in 2012 and it had a history of abuse.
 

Spkrdctr

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I had a drain plug fall out at 140km/h on my Suzuki 400E motorcycle. The handling was apparently suffering in a corner and so I waited till I slowed down and test hit the rear brake and almost skidded out. It was a scary ride. I've always been apprehensive about mechanics after that.
Doodski, I had the same thing happen to me right after an oil change! My rock solid Suzuki B-King got all wobbly on me. So I pulled off the freeway into a McDonalds. I checked the oil filler plug and it was not there!!! The entire back of the bike, my Draggin Jeans pant leg, rear tire and rear brake pads were coated in fresh brand new Amsoil motorcycle oil. A huge mess. I had to wait 3 hours for a bike tow truck (in Florida) so of course, much McDonalds was eaten. But the end of the story was I was the one who changed the oil! I just plum forgot to put the cap back on after filling it. Luckily it only cost me about $400 total. The engine did not run out of oil or I would have destroyed the engine. I never ever forgot after that. Lesson learned.
 

Spkrdctr

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I do recommend sending oil out for analysis if anyone wants real info for oil wear at a particular mileage, it's only $30 and tells you everything you need to know.
Words of wisdom. For only $30 you can have facts instead of guessing. But if someone wants to just change their oil at a certain interval, you will never go wrong with 5000 changes on synthetic. You could even stretch it to 6 or 7000 with no problem. I would never go over 7000 as it is just too long for me to mentally handle. My brain will not allow me to do that. UNLESS I had it tested. But I'm too lazy to test it. :)
 

RayDunzl

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You could even stretch it to 6 or 7000 with no problem.

I think my longest change was 44,000 miles, once a year, regardless, at Thanksgiving, at home, when I traveled a lot, back in the late 80's or early 90's.

That car (unlike my current Camry which neither dines on it nor poops it) needed a quart every four or five thousand miles. So that would have been maybe 8 quarts of fresh added to the initial 5.

It eventually (after I gave it away after being rear-ended) went maybe 250,000 before the rest of it decomposed enough to call the whole thing trash.

I would never go over 7000 as it is just too long for me to mentally handle. I would never go over 7000 as it is just too long for me to mentally handle. My brain will not allow me to do that. UNLESS I had it tested.

Get it tested a hundred miles after you change it, and again at 7000.

It wouldn't surprise me if the results were similar.

But I'm too lazy to test it.

Oh, well, forget it.
 

Spkrdctr

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Get it tested a hundred miles after you change it, and again at 7000.

It wouldn't surprise me if the results were similar.

Oh, well, forget it.
Ray that was a great funny read. You summed my lack of performance up quite well. Easier to just change it then test it. Plus, with my background I just can't believe so many people who waste thousands every year on cigs, beer, drugs, crappy speakers and all kinds of stuff will search for any justification to not change their oil. It is a weird human thing. Most people just ignore the oil change until they hear a knocking sound under the hood. That is their factory installed audible oil change alarm!
 

RayDunzl

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If interested in what is left of engines after "something happens", the series of videos by this nice person makes excellent lay-on-the-couch-and-take-a-nap viewing as he tears down destroyed metal.

He buys scrap engines, but usually newer, and maybe more rare, to part out what's still good and sell, as a salvage business.

Oil starvation is a prime culprit leading to all sorts of damage.


 

thewas

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Plus, with my background I just can't believe so many people who waste thousands every year on cigs, beer, drugs, crappy speakers and all kinds of stuff will search for any justification to not change their oil. It is a weird human thing.
Despite being a mechanical engineer and car aficionado myself I find it more weird though how many people care and spend a lot more time, effort and money on their cars, oils, paint, service etc. then on their own health, food etc. I fully agree that humans can be quite irrational.
 

Sal1950

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For all the money some here suggest spending on having the oil tested, you could just change it and be sure.
Or you already did change it. LOL
 

Sal1950

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blueone

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For all the money some here suggest spending on having the oil tested, you could just change it and be sure.
Or you already did change it. LOL
Not true. Blackstone testing tells you about metals in the oil, which might indicate issues with internal components, and an oil change won't remedy that. Driving Porsches and BMWs, as I do, I occasionally like to see a metals report. So far no problems ever, but like a PSA test sometimes I just like to see a good number. :) Also, I don't have oil tests done very often. Perhaps once every three years or so, usually the first a few months the before manufacturer's warranty expires.
 

Sal1950

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Perhaps once every three years or so, usually the first a few months the before manufacturer's warranty expires.
Then you have the time to dump it on some unsuspecting clod. LOL
 

captainbeefheart

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Not true. Blackstone testing tells you about metals in the oil, which might indicate issues with internal components, and an oil change won't remedy that. Driving Porsches and BMWs, as I do, I occasionally like to see a metals report. So far no problems ever, but like a PSA test sometimes I just like to see a good number. :) Also, I don't have oil tests done very often. Perhaps once every three years or so, usually the first a few months the before manufacturer's warranty expires.

Yes along with the metal content which can tell you the exact parts that are wearing we have caught many head gasket failures where there were no other symptoms like sweet white smoke from exhaust and overheating. The analysis will show small levels of coolant in the oil and so you can fix the problem before it gets worse and causes overheating and then you warp your head or crack a block. Older engines high combustion gasses will tell you if your rings are wearing excessively. There are many advantages to doing an oil analysis besides just finding your sweet spot for oil changes.

I have oil out there from our BMW I just changed out past 10k miles, I just poured some into a container to ship out to Blackstone. I'll post the results when I get them but I guarantee the oil could go another 5k easily and probably up to 20k. I don't go that high not because the oil but because the Hengst filter I use is cellulose and not synthetic. Mann and Wix offer filters but they too are cellulose. Oh well I'm fine with 10k oil changes and not trying to squeeze every bit of life from the oil. I just don't think 5k is worth it unless your are towing a lot or on the race track.
 

blueone

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Then you have the time to dump it on some unsuspecting clod. LOL
That has never been my motivation for the test before warranty expiration. The reason is to raise the issue formally with the dealer / manufacturer and get them to take some sort of action while the ball is still in their court.
 

Sal1950

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That has never been my motivation for the test before warranty expiration.
Yea, OK, Sure
Only the highest of motivations............:rolleyes:
 

blueone

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Yea, OK, Sure
Only the highest of motivations............:rolleyes:
You accuse me of having nefarious motivations, and then when I tell you my actual reasoning you imply I'm lying? Goodbye.
 

RayDunzl

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Oil fight!
 

Powerbench

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Play it safe follow the recommendations of the manufacturer or sooner not worth voiding the warranty.
Could be many factors but condensation also could be a contributor, DI engines always have fuel leakage issues due to blow by, poor design and improper engine break in. Every engine is different has its quirks.
 

Sal1950

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You accuse me of having nefarious motivations, and then when I tell you my actual reasoning you imply I'm lying? Goodbye.
Oh God man, can't you take a little ball bustin humor.
I apologize if you were hurt. :facepalm:
 
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