OH, NO! AMIR IS UNDER ATTACK!!!

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Is that a verified and documented fact? Your use of "will" suggests speculation on your part. Has someone actually done, and recorded the results of, abx listening tests of a $99 streamer vs a $14k streamer?

Or did you mean to say that they measured the same in Amir's tests?

They almost certainly didn't measure the same (as in identical) but above a sensible level of accuracy, you don't need an ABX test to know they'll sound the same. No speculation required

 

[MarkS]

Is that a verified and documented fact? Your use of "will" suggests speculation on your part. Has someone actually done, and recorded the results of, abx listening tests of a $99 streamer vs a $14k streamer?

Or did you mean to say that they measured the same in Amir's tests?

They were not exactly the same, as shown by the graphs. But they were similar enough that the differences are well below the threshold of human hearing.

Absolute threshold of hearing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Axo1989]

The ones that Amir measured will sound exactly the same.

For sure, but what about the zeroes?

 

[Keith_W]

A $14K streamer will sound different than a $99 streamer because the former is intentionally voiced to sound, perhaps, "warmer", or more "tube-like"; manufacturers know what (most of) their customers want, and a lot can happen in FPGAs.

A guy walks into an optometrist.

Customer: "I need a new pair of glasses. Those guys at Optical Science Review said that a $99 pair of glasses transmits 99.9999% of light".
Salesman: "Pfft, what do those guys know. That head honcho over there is a washed up ex-Microsoft reject. They don't know how to see, they just measure. Try these $14,000 glasses"
C: "But I can barely see through them"
S: "Exactly, but look how warm and fuzzy everything is"
C: "The guys at OSR said you can achieve the same thing by smearing vaseline on the lens"
S: "It's not the same. The warmth and blurriness are integrated into the glass itself. It was carefully tuned by our guru to give you this look. He lives in the Himalayas, hand grinds each lens from the purest Himalayan quartz, and he only eats mountain vegetables and drinks yak's milk to keep his mind pure. It's really something."
Bystander: "But glasses are supposed to show you what the world looks like, not to distort the scenery to your liking ..."
C: "SHUT UP HERETIC!!! Can you do $12,000?"
S: "Done. You've got a bargain here".

 

[respice finem]

A fool and his money... OTOH, maybe it's better when the fool's money is spent on piffle. Otherwise it could be used for something really harmful and dangerous. Considering this, I don't care that much. If someone wants to "throw it away", it's his, not mine.

 

[antcollinet]

Is that a verified and documented fact? Your use of "will" suggests speculation on your part. Has someone actually done, and recorded the results of, abx listening tests of a $99 streamer vs a $14k streamer?

Or did you mean to say that they measured the same in Amir's tests?

If noise, distortion and FR deviation are all measured below the level of the human ear to detect, how can they sound different? This is all well understood.

But if you're a digital component manufacturer, you wouldn't want to perplex easily confused buyers with tone controls; best to quietly run the signal through DSP.

Can you show one high end device (or low end for that matter) that has been measured with an audibly non flat frequency response that demonstrates this has been done? Excepting top end roll off from a bad (or non existent) reconstruction filter - which is not "voicing" just "bad design"

 

[pma]

If noise, distortion and FR deviation are all measured below the level of the human ear to detect, how can they sound different? This is all well understood.

FR deviations are rarely measured with complex loads that would somehow simulate real speakers. Stereophile does, sometimes, such measurements. Amir does not, with an excuse that it is impossible to cover all situations. That is true, however measurements with 4ohm and 8ohm resistors is insufficient. It tells a little, especially in case of class D amplifiers, those with LC filter outside FB. I am sorry to say that usual simple set of measurements tells a little about possible sound differences. It tells something about engineering, which is not necessarily the same thing. Measurements with resistor load would be sufficient only in case that amplifier output complex impedance would have been measured. Again, it is not the case and instead we have those SINAD charts, that tell almost nothing about sound.

 

[antcollinet]

FR deviations are rarely measured with complex loads that would somehow simulate real speakers.

This (sub) discussion was about voicing of streamers - not amps. Plus - even with amps, this is not a "voicing" thing - since it is speaker dependent.

 

[voodooless]

this is not a "voicing" thing - since it is speaker dependent.

 

[Bruce Morgen]

View attachment 479942

Another reason to go with well designed active speakers -- the "synergy" is built in by professionals!

 

[Svend P]

Is there an ASR manifesto somewhere that sets out the basic philosophy? (I'm not finding one ...) That might forestall the need for 100+ replies ...

There is this

'Audio Science Review FAQ #1'

Aug 26, 2025

This is the first in a series of FAQs for Audio Science Review.

1. Who created Audio Science Review?

The founder is Amir Majidimehr. You can find out more about me by clicking on my background link in my signature. Briefly, I have had a long career in computing, audio, video and imaging software and hardware. This enables me to assess performance of audio products at a deeper level.

2. What is the origin of Audio Science Review (ASR)?

Original aim was to bring published audio research to a more understandable level. With such research usually behind pay...

• amirm
• Replies: 0
• Forum: Audio Science Review FAQ

• 

 

[RexrothPigeon]

A guy walks into an optometrist.

Customer: "I need a new pair of glasses. Those guys at Spectacles Science Review said that a $99 pair of glasses transmits 99.9999% of light".
Salesman: "Pfft, what do those guys know. That head honcho over there is a washed up ex-Microsoft reject. They don't know how to see, they just measure. Try these $14,000 glasses"
C: "But I can barely see through them"
S: "Exactly, but look how warm and fuzzy everything is"
C: "The guys at SSR said you can achieve the same thing by smearing vaseline on the lens"
S: "It's not the same. The warmth and blurriness are integrated into the glass itself. It was carefully tuned by our guru to give you this look. He lives in the Himalayas, hand grinds each lens from the purest Himalayan quartz, and he only eats mountain vegetables and drinks yak's milk to keep his mind pure. It's really something."
Bystander: "But glasses are supposed to show you what the world looks like, not to distort the scenery to your liking ..."
C: "SHUT UP HERETIC!!! Can you do $12,000?"
S: "Done. You've got a bargain here".

slow clap

 

[Sal1950]

Only to us. To the people who Amir is discussing with - they believe they can hear night and day differences between the expensive "high end" HiFi - and the "MidFI" we all say sounds the same.

What he is pointing out to them - is that if they were hearing a difference - it can only be the garbage and rancid leftovers.

@antcollinet is right here, Your never going to re-write their religion.
Better and more persuasive to show them why they might be hearing differences than to argue they're delusional.

 

[egellings]

The ones that Amir measured will sound exactly the same.

Yep. The drop forge and the tack hammer will both drive the little tack home with equal ease.

 

[egellings]

For sure, but what about the zeroes?

They set the selling price for the piece.

 

[MarkS]

@antcollinet is right here, Your never going to re-write their religion.
Better and more persuasive to show them why they might be hearing differences than to argue they're delusional.

I cannot agree with making an argument that is objectlvely false.

The measured differences between those two DACs are far below the level of human hearing. So they are not why the subjectivists are hearing differences. The differences exist only in their minds: they are fooling themselves.

This is the truth. We should tell the truth, IMO.

 

[Sal1950]

I cannot agree with making an argument that is objectlvely false.

But to quote Jack Nicholson,
They Can't Stand The Truth. LOL

 

[Salt]

Should finally Close the thread

 

[Robin L]

Should finally Close the thread

"This discussion has been removed

One of our moderators or admins have removed this discussion.

Feel free to contact support if you think this was done in error."

So, might as well.

 

[Bruce Morgen]

Should finally Close the thread

Agree -- it's about time. @RickS ?