OH, NO! AMIR IS UNDER ATTACK!!!

[Noske]

The OP in that thread specifically mentioned and criticised @Amir and ASR. That - by my reckoning - is an invitation to step in and set the record straight. If the forum doesn't like this - then tough - they should have deleted the OP from the start.

More than an invitation. It amounts to providing a right to step in, whether welcome or not, where before no such right otherwise existed.

Which is still sort of saying what you did, just different.

 

[JSmith]

It's quite amusing in some ways when these people post smack on another forum thinking it will all be in house... then Amir pops in and everyone is pwned.


JSmith

 

[Noske]

It's quite amusing in some ways when these people post smack on another forum thinking it will all be in house... then Amir pops in and everyone is pwned.


JSmith

Or, more generally, only seen by or confined to America audiences. This peculiarity is not confined to AudioGon by any means.

 

[Sal1950]

Sometimes you just have to bring out the big guns.

 

[egellings]

Language models can also lie or make up "facts" quite creatively sometimes, it seems...

AI is learning to lie, scheme, and threaten its creators during stress-testing scenarios | Fortune

"This is not just hallucinations. There's a very strategic kind of deception."

fortune.com

When AI's do that they are said to be hallucinating.

 

[egellings]

If you know anything about AudioGon, they have erased more threads and banned more users than all the books in the libraries of Congress and people who died in WWII.

It's easier to erase a complete thread than to tell people to conduct themselves like humans at AG. I thought that was universally known. 95+ % of the decent members have long since abandoned, died or been banned from that site. I'd say they are hanging on by a thread, but they might remove that, too.

I visit 2-3 sites and post an average of 3-5 posts per week. Life is too short to spend every waking hour fumbling around on a website.

I have chickens to feed, neighbors to holler at, and politicians to complain about to the rabbit, goats, and dog. The chickens quit listening.

Regards

Bedawk!

 

[respice finem]

When AI's do that they are said to be hallucinating.

A fancier name, doesn't make it better. Reminds me of calling debt "special funds" ("Sondervermögen" in Germany)
/OT.

 

[MarkS]

Their belief is that science & engineering is not good enough to explain what they perceive. Ours is that it is and that they are not performing their listening tests correctly.

This is an excellent short summary of the conflicting opinions.

 

[Multicore]

townies

?

 

[egellings]

A fancier name, doesn't make it better. Reminds me of calling debt "special funds" ("Sondervermögen" in Germany)
/OT.

Well, sometimes you need a bit of deodorant in the bathroom.

 

[MarkS]

I wish Amir had placed more emphasis on the absence of audible differences, rather than on better-measuring (but audibly indistinguishable) engineering being available at low cost.

The OP over there asked objectivists/ASR to "Measure using an ADC map out the waveform and show us the actual output." Amir replies "This is done at the start of almost all of reviews" and shows this graph (among others) for an $89 DAC:

The OP also asked "Compare more high-end gear with budget audio equipment". Amir replies "Here is the same output as above, but for a $14,000 DAC" and shows this graph (among others):

Amir then writes "Clearly the "high-end" DAC is producing tons more garbage than the ultra low cost one. You want your music unadulterated or with a lot of rancid leftovers?"

IMO, this language is not helpful when speaking to subjectivists. I would expect "tons more garbage" and "a lot of rancid leftovers" to make the sound bad. But it won't be bad. That "tons of garbage" is all at least 90dB down and hence completely inaudible.

This difference in performance (ignoring the price difference) only matters to those who value good engineering for its own sake. And that is not a value held by most subjectivists, or even many of us objectivists.

I, for one, only care about audible (to me) differences. To me, those two DACs have identical performance, because I know that I will not be able to hear a difference. I don't care at all about the "tons of garbage" and "rancid leftovers" that can be seen in measurements.

To speak effectively to subjectivists (or any group) requires understanding their values and framing points in terms of those values.

 

[antcollinet]

But it won't be bad. That "tons of garbage" is all at least 90dB down and hence completely inaudible.

Only to us. To the people who Amir is discussing with - they believe they can hear night and day differences between the expensive "high end" HiFi - and the "MidFI" we all say sounds the same.

What he is pointing out to them - is that if they were hearing a difference - it can only be the garbage and rancid leftovers.

 

[MarkS]

Only to us.

No. No one can hear a difference, they can only imagine that they hear a difference. They could easily check this by doing properly controlled blind listening, which they won't do.

What he is pointing out to them - is that if they were hearing a difference - it can only be the garbage and rancid leftovers.

My point is that "you can't hear a difference" is a better argument than "maybe you can hear a difference (even though we know you cannot), but if so it's caused by garbage".

 

[antcollinet]

No. No one can hear a difference, they can only imagine that they hear a difference. They could easily check this by doing properly controlled blind listening, which they won't do.

My point is that "you can't hear a difference" is a better argument than "maybe you can hear a difference (even though we know you cannot), but if so it's caused by garbage".

Except that they know that they can - even though they can't

 

[devinplombier]

A $14K streamer will sound different than a $99 streamer because the former is intentionally voiced to sound, perhaps, "warmer", or more "tube-like"; manufacturers know what (most of) their customers want, and a lot can happen in FPGAs.

Audiophiles, the majority of whom don't take the covers off their gear lest they be baffled by the sight of a machine's complicated internals, don't see the feeble ARM Cortex CPU or the heavily hacked Linux distro, but they hear the sound quality difference and they are pleased by it. They assume it is due to superior design and engineering, or to hand-matched audio-grade resistors, or whatever; wrap it in jewelry-like casework, and they have no qualms with the asking price. You get what you pay for!

 

[antcollinet]

because the former is intentionally voiced to sound, perhaps, "warmer", or more "tube-like"

How is it voiced - non flat frequency response? Distortion? Noise? Why are these things not showing up in measurements - except for the worst examples of bad design.

There isn't anything else - and none of those things is desirable in audio reproduction gear. You perhaps could argue in favour of non flat frequency response- but then just put tone controls onto a flat device and let the user choose their own voicing.

 

[devinplombier]

You perhaps could argue in favour of non flat frequency response- but then just put tone controls onto a flat device and let the user choose their own voicing.

I'm definitely not arguing in favor of voicing digital components. I believe a system should be voiced by its core; not its DAC or streamer, that's like the tail wagging the dog.

But if you're a digital component manufacturer, you wouldn't want to perplex easily confused buyers with tone controls; best to quietly run the signal through DSP.

Why are these things not showing up in measurements?

Exactly

 

[MarkS]

A $14K streamer will sound different than a $99 streamer

The ones that Amir measured will sound exactly the same.

 

[devinplombier]

The ones that Amir measured will sound exactly the same.

Is that a verified and documented fact? Your use of "will" suggests speculation on your part. Has someone actually done, and recorded the results of, abx listening tests of a $99 streamer vs a $14k streamer?

Or did you mean to say that they measured the same in Amir's tests?

 

[JSmith]

A $14K streamer will sound different than a $99 streamer because the former is intentionally voiced to sound, perhaps, "warmer", or more "tube-like"

... uh huh.


JSmith