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OFC or CCA speaker cable?

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DanielT

DanielT

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With 4mm^2 ofc you are on a secure side. Now forgett about speakercables. ;)
So true, so true.:)

OT:
Now saw that Bauhaus has started selling acoustic panels. Maybe something for those who have the opportunity to visit that department store? I do not know if they are good, but they are there anyway. There you should be able to hear the difference in the sound after you have placed some of them, as opposed to different cables (which you may be able to do in extreme cases).


I do not know if Bauhaus has different offerings, assortment, in different countries, I should add.
 

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Koeitje

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Doesn't matter, but for CCA you will need a thicker cable.
 

MCH

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OT:
Now saw that Bauhaus has started selling acoustic panels. Maybe something for those who have the opportunity to visit that department store? I do not know if they are good, but they are there anyway. There you should be able to hear the difference in the sound after you have placed some of them, as opposed to different cables (which you may be able to do in extreme cases).


I do not know if Bauhaus has different offerings, assortment, in different countries, I should add.
Those look interesting and not as ugly as other options. I see they have them in Bauhaus Germany too.
They have some data in their website, let's see if someone with experience or knowledgeable chimes in
 

Berwhale

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Anyway. Tips for those who buy cables. Keep in mind that cables can be differently flexible, ie rigid / bendable. So there will be no problem with the pacing of them.

Yes, back in the days when I thought it mattered, I bought some QED Silver Anniversary cable that was ridiculously stiff and difficult to hide. These days, most of my cables are hidden walls or trunking and I tend buy Van Damme professional cable that is flexible and easy to route...


Crikey! I just noticed the price, I paid £45 for 25m in 2010.
 

antennaguru

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IMO, the best bet for speaker wire is to buy some Belden 8473 cable. It's a twisted pair of 14 gauge stranded/tinned copper wires designed to be speaker cable by one of the biggest cable companies in the world - that has real cable engineers designing their cables. Lower power systems can often work just fine with Belden 9497 which is a twisted pair of 16 gauge stranded/tinned copper wires also designed to be speaker cable. Both are flexible and will last for an eternity - because they are engineered for this application. They are engineered for low capacitance/inductance, and the tinning provides corrosion resistance like it does with circuit boards. I prefer mechanically clamped and then carefully soldered connectors on each end, for a permanent non-deteriorating connection. It's an easy DIY project for a fraction of the cost of commercially pre-assembled speaker cable.

Be careful of any cable with bare untinned stranded copper conductors under a vinyl jacket/covering as very often the vinyl jacket/covering will leach corrosive plasticizers onto the bare untinned copper causing it to turn green with corrosion in only a few years - which you will see through the vinyl jacket/covering if it's clear. I can't imagine that a conductor consisting of a bunch of corroded strands will perform properly and not contribute to IMD. I have personally seen this green corrosion on copper wires many times. There are actually cable specifications for a non-contaminating plastic jacket/covering which are detailed in the datasheet of the particular cable...
 

Speedskater

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...For awhile they were using aluminum for house wiring but there were problems related to thermal expansion/contraction that caused poor-connections over time, and oxidation (maybe related to dissimilar metals at the connections) and there were resulting house fires! You're not going to start a fire with a bad speaker connection but over a long period of time it might be less reliable.
Yep, a half century ago, there were problems using aluminum wire for residential AC power circuits. But the AC power industry learned its lesson. Now they use a different aluminum alloy for the wire and different metals for the connector contact joints. The local power companys use a lot of aluminum wire in their system. But they have special tools, connectors and training for their installs.
 

toddsdonald

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IMO, the best bet for speaker wire is to buy some Belden 8473 cable. It's a twisted pair of 14 gauge stranded/tinned copper wires designed to be speaker cable by one of the biggest cable companies in the world - that has real cable engineers designing their cables. Lower power systems can often work just fine with Belden 9497 which is a twisted pair of 16 gauge stranded/tinned copper wires also designed to be speaker cable. Both are flexible and will last for an eternity - because they are engineered for this application. They are engineered for low capacitance/inductance, and the tinning provides corrosion resistance like it does with circuit boards. I prefer mechanically clamped and then carefully soldered connectors on each end, for a permanent non-deteriorating connection. It's an easy DIY project for a fraction of the cost of commercially pre-assembled speaker cable.

Be careful of any cable with bare untinned stranded copper conductors under a vinyl jacket/covering as very often the vinyl jacket/covering will leach corrosive plasticizers onto the bare untinned copper causing it to turn green with corrosion in only a few years - which you will see through the vinyl jacket/covering if it's clear. I can't imagine that a conductor consisting of a bunch of corroded strands will perform properly and not contribute to IMD. I have personally seen this green corrosion on copper wires many times. There are actually cable specifications for a non-contaminating plastic jacket/covering which are detailed in the datasheet of the particular cable...
That Belden cable looks like a good choice, but relatively expensive compared to plain old OFC copper speaker wire. I completely agree with mechanical (crimped) connectors and soldering is an extra step that will ensure they don't come off. Not sure what the trend with screw connectors is, but IMO it's a less secure connection and I can't envision it providing the same contact quality.

My recent experience with CCA speaker wire vs copper speaker wire only compares two: Amazon Basics 16/2 in wall white jacketed and Monoprice 12/2 in wall black jacketed 99.9 OFC copper.

The CCA was interesting because as an old timer I didn't even know there was a copper clad aluminum speaker wire. Guess I'm stuck in the 80's and assumed it was just copper. Anyway, before I even knew what CCA was, I could tell I didn't like the way the strands would shear off and land in my terminal cups, on my floor or worse, get lodged in my fingers while I was working with them.

Functionally the CCA 16/2 seemed to work fine in my application with under 25 foot runs, (60 wpc receiver and 8 ohm nominal speakers).

Then I found out about the whole CCA thing and decided to hunt down some budget copper wire and while I'm at it why not go big or go home. Well in all honesty, mainly wanted the much larger 12 gauge because it fits more appropriately in my speaker binding posts and I'm too cheap to buy decent crimp on connectors and can't bring myself to buy the screw on, or twist and crush style... From my industrial machinery building days I know terminations like that come loose and don't provide the same quality contact as a crimp on. Besides, terminating bare speaker wire eliminates a bunch of added variables.

The copper wire eliminated the problem I had with CCA wire strands breaking off or getting cut off when removing the jacket and tightening them in the binding posts. No little strands broke loose and best of all, none got lodged in my fingers.

The difference in the workability of the 16/2 CCA and 12/2 copper was like night and day though. The larger copper wire was way harder to work with and didn't relax after taking it off the spool. The outer jacket on the copper was way thicker and tougher. My arthritic knuckles still hurt just thinking about each end I worked on.

The sound of the two was something worth mentioning. I brought it up at another forum and got misdirected into a debate on speaker break in. Anyway, on my tower speakers which are rated to 31hz -3 db, when connected with the thinner 16/2 CCA measured down to 40 hz for crossover point by Audessey. When I switched to the larger 12/2 copper wire, (everything else stayed the same), Audessey measured them at 70 hz for crossover point. I ran Audessey several times with the same results. I thought the speakers sounded good either way, but it seemed like I hear a more dynamic and clear mid-bass to high region. Not sure what's happening there, or if it's my imagination. I did find some old research that discussed the affects of capacitance by different wire and that it can cause a reduction in highs, (possibly giving the illusion of more bass?).

The larger wire didn't seem to affect the center channel the same way however.

I'm going to start tinkering with the wiring some more and maybe try a different brand, style or size of copper to see if anything changes.
 
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DanielT

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The CCA was interesting because as an old timer I didn't even know there was a copper clad aluminum speaker wire.
Now I to think of something that I did not ask in the thread. What is the purpose of CCA? A little clad, what does it give?
...or if it's my imagination.
A sensible, humble attitude.:)
 
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toddsdonald

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Now I came up with something I did not ask in the thread. What is the purpose of CCA?

A sensible, humble attitude.:)
Thanks! I think if I understand correctly CCA (copper clad wire) is a less expensive alternative to pure copper, am I right?
 

DonH56

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Now I to think of something that I did not ask in the thread. What is the purpose of CCA? A little clad, what does it give?
Slightly less resistance, a copper-copper connection instead of Al to Cu (until you break through the very thin copper cladding), stronger wire (higher tensile strength for Al as @Doodski said), and lower cost. I imagine for sellers the latter is most important...

Edit: Slightly less resistance compared to pure Al wire; still much higher resistance than pure copper wire of the same diameter.
 
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toddsdonald

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Slightly less resistance, a copper-copper connection instead of Al to Cu (until you break through the very thin copper cladding), stronger wire (higher tensile strength for Al as @Doodski said), and lower cost. I imagine for sellers the latter is most important...

Edit: Slightly less resistance compared to pure Al wire; still much higher resistance than pure copper wire of the same diameter.
Interesting. Tensile strength of CCA wouldn't make any difference in home audio, unless measured wrong and stretching it to finish a run, but the lack of shear strength would and is where I think my problem was tightening the bare ends down in the binding posts. With the c22opper by contrast, I can put in and out of a binding post without losing a single strand multiple times.

I think I'll measure resistance of one of my CCA 16/2 cables compared to the copper 12/2 and see if there's any difference.
 

Doodski

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I think I'll measure resistance of one of my CCA 16/2 cables compared to the copper 12/2 and see if there's any difference.
You may run into measurement issues where the leads, the resistance of the contacts and the multimeter resolution can't measure that low accurately.
 

DonH56

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Note pure Al actually has lower tensile strength than copper, but Al alloys usually have much higher tensile strength, though Al is also usually more brittle (see various references). Al is much lighter than copper so is easier to handle in long lengths. As for resistance, Al is only about 60% as conductive as copper, so it takes about 1.7x the diameter of an Al wire to equal the resistance of a 1x diameter copper wire. Al also has a higher temperature coefficient, which means it expands more when it gets hot (and contracts more when cold) than copper, so an Al-Cu connection tends to work itself loose over time. This in addition to the corrosion problem with Al-Cu connections that led to house fires before they figured out work-arounds (primarily better techniques for connecting Al and Cu wiring).
 

antennaguru

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12 Gauge copper wire only has around 1.6 ohms resistance per thousand feet at DC, so short lengths clearly present a measurement challenge - as already pointed out by others. Don't even bother trying to accurately measure a short 10 or so foot length with a multimeter and alligator clips.

IME the advantage(s) of copper cladding another type of metal wire has more to do with taking advantage of skin effect to reduce cost and/or increase strength and/or reduce stretch and/or reduce corrosion.

Skin effect is a much more complex AC discussion that has to do with AC's changing magnetic fields within a conductor and most folks will simplify this discussion by stating it doesn't matter at AC audio frequencies (20 Hz to 20 KHz), and only pertains to applications at higher AC radio frequencies (over 500 KHz). That is probably the easiest way to deal with a speaker cable skin effect discussion from a practical standpoint since the AC frequency is rather low and the conductors are rather small in diameter. Nevertheless skin effect does actually pertain to some extent at lower AC frequencies where larger conductors are used. As an example, I have a couple of friends that have made their careers engineering 60 Hz Transmission Lines for Electrical Power Utilities (the big ones you see from aircraft), and they do actually engineer skin effect in their work using these large conductors in order to use a steel core in the conductors for lower stretch (simple physical and also thermal) and for greater strength. Sometimes they even use several "smaller" conductors in a "bundle configuration" where the several conductors are insulated from one another by a ceramic spacer and air, to reduce the skin effect loss that would be experienced when carrying 60 Hz current in one single larger conductor, and also for more efficient surface area air cooling of the conductors. Skin effect is indeed engineered for 60 Hz transmission line conductors, the transmission lines that bring electric power long distances to where the electric power is then distributed to vast numbers of customers.

In the middle of the audio frequency band (10 KHz) using 12 gauge copper conductors (81 mil diameter) the skin effect is around 1/3rd of the way into the conductor (26 mil deep), meaning that the 1/3rd or so in diameter core part of the conductor (29 mil diameter) carries much less current than the outer "skin" part of the conductor, and other complicated things like eddy currents exist in the core part of the conductor. Again, this particular analysis is for 10 KHz, right in the middle of the audio frequency band, and done considering solid conductors because stranded conductors are typically a little larger in diameter based on the stranding implementation (how many strands and their gauge) and would thus be another variable. The skin effect runs shallower into the conductor as you go higher in frequency (thus more significant), and runs deeper into the conductor as you go lower in frequency (thus less significant). For this reason I typically suggest using 14 gauge or 16 gauge speaker cables for sending the full audio frequency range over the typical short distances within a room, as all you're really accomplishing with larger conductors is spending more of your money for copper than you probably need to. Using 12 gauge conductors at treble frequencies brings with it some more complex variables related to skin effect and core eddy currents. These variables theoretically "might" account for some different listening experiences between different size conductors, or at least the physics says it "might". OK, for long speaker cable runs at lower subwoofer frequencies 12 gauge may well possibly make sense when the current flow is high enough, so long as all you're sending through the 12 gauge cable is the subwoofer frequencies.

Personally I would not use copper clad aluminum conductors for speaker cable due to the many new variables it introduces, many of them simply physical shortcomings.

In the end, please refer back to my post number 25 suggesting making speaker cables from cable that is engineered specifically for speaker cable by one of the largest cable manufacturers in the world, with actual cable engineers doing their engineering.
 
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Mnyb

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I tend steer clear of CCA Ethernet cables, the lower ductility of aluminium vs copper makes them more fragile and prone to failure.

There's lots of interesting information regarding copper vs aluminium here: https://www.wilsonpowersolutions.co.uk/white-paper-aluminium-vs-copper/
This is it, I would not consider aluminium cables in any case except a fixed install where the cables never moves , by fixed I mean screwed in place ?

Aluminium has its use case for large power cables like a 240 square millimetre 3 phase power cables , but even then the screen is copper , for mechanical reasons .

Overhead high voltage power lines are aluminium alloy usually also with a steel core .

Aluminium is much cheaper than copper that’s why it’s used mainly. But for the tiny sizes considered in audio or computer cables it’s makes no sense, it’s not much of a saving.
 
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JSmith

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Amir tested various brands of speaker wire;


JSmith
 

restorer-john

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Aluminium for all the 275kV lines here- imagine the cost/weight if they used copper. There was a situation here where thieves were cutting down new HT lines from towers before they were connected with giant cherry pickers and concrete saws. Thieves even steal the 15-20ft of neutral-ground ties (solid copper) that run down our power poles. A energy bloke I spoke to told me there are 30-50 replacements they do every week just those alone.

Now I make a habit of looking at power poles and it's incredible how many earthed neutrals have been stolen- and keep getting stolen.
 
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