Octave Music Don Grusin High Resolution Music Analysis (Video)

[kencreten]

So much great information. Thank you. I've heard that DSD is the bomb and questioned it from an information content perspective. But I did not know about that massive amount of noise if unfiltered. That's ridiculous. Perhaps if they bought Nordost RCA cables it would fix it? (joke)

 

[Billy Budapest]

I've made same conclusion last year, analysing HD files (192khz/24bit) with a nice free software : spek
When I saw all this emptiness in 192khz files (sometimes with surprises like your file, a band of noise appears), I decided to stop my choice on 96khz/24bit at best. This software can also be usefull to test the quality of the file, if there is a regular gap below 22khz, there is certainly a problem with the file. And it's interesting to compare 24bits with 16bits file, you see a reinforcement into low freq (yellow became orange).

Another thing, you can download a freq generator onto your phone, generate high freq (20khz) and reduce until you really hear it... make your own conclusions , make the test with younger people, it's "funny" (or not).

I suppose that there is snake-oiled audiophile explanations to justify this numbers, a "technical" link between ultrasounds (by definition inaudible) powering normal sounds freq

24/44.1 will capture all humanly-audible sound frequencies while 24/48 gives you more of a safety margin against aliasing artifacts created when the signal is band limited.

 

[HighImpactAV]

2) We always talk of the extra over 22KHz but isn't the real point of high res to give finer gradations in the audio band?

High resolution (high sample rates) only lets you measure smaller wavelengths. Think of going from 48 kHz to 96 kHz like creating 1/10 of a cent coins - a very small measurement of currency. You can then pay the exact amount for fuel, but it doesn't make your payment for anything else more accurate when you use 1/10 of a cent coins. You can already pay accurately with a penny or higher value coin. A thousand 1/10 of a cent coins isn't any more accurate than a 1 dollar coin even though you are giving someone "finer gradations."

 

[Geert]

does the recording hardware itself (mics, mixing boards, A/D converters, DAW interfaces, etc.) have the ability to capture 24-bits worth of dynamic range?

No, because Octave Records is recording to DSD but mixing on a 30 year old Studer 900 series mixing desk. Nice desk, but no where close to 24-bit SNR.

 

[dadregga]

If they're well-mastered good performances (and some of them are) then they're worth it, even if the format claims don't stack up (as we know they don't).

 

[DWPress]

I'm almost feeling sorry for Paul. Almost.

I had a PS Audio 6.2 preamp (which I sold to a member here I believe) which came from the early days when Steve Jeffery was CEO that was essentially a straight wire device with a switch for gain if you wanted. It was a nice piece of gear for the day.

 

[HighImpactAV]

 

[dav0043]

I've made same conclusion last year, analysing HD files (192khz/24bit) with a nice free software : spek
When I saw all this emptiness in 192khz files (sometimes with surprises like your file, a band of noise appears), I decided to stop my choice on 96khz/24bit at best. This software can also be usefull to test the quality of the file, if there is a regular gap below 22khz, there is certainly a problem with the file. And it's interesting to compare 24bits with 16bits file, you see a reinforcement into low freq (yellow became orange).

Another thing, you can download a freq generator onto your phone, generate high freq (20khz) and reduce until you really hear it... make your own conclusions , make the test with younger people, it's "funny" (or not).

I suppose that there is snake-oiled audiophile explanations to justify this numbers, a "technical" link between ultrasounds (by definition inaudible) powering normal sounds freq

re: "ultrasounds". What we can't hear (and see) is where charlatans live and thrive. It's the basis of every religion, cult & snakeoil purchase.

 

[Anthony101]

I listen to my music on vinyl, CD, SACD and streaming, and please don't me bollocking because I listen to records. I know very well from experience that vinyl is an inconvenience and an expense.

So here is my question: What is the best audio quality format you guys would recommend to enjoy music. Is it an SACD, lossless, FLAC, 24khz, 48khz etc.?

 

[Somafunk]

What is the best audio quality format you guys would recommend to enjoy music.

The cheapest format that audibly satisfies yourself, anything else and you‘re participating in a circle jerk mentality.

CD quality/streaming for myself is quite enough for my tastes

 

[JaMaSt]

How much of a load do all those inaudible, higher frequencies place on an amplifier? An amplifier has a finite amount of power, right? Aren't you taking away power from the audible spectrum for no reason? Or is the "inaudible" load so small that it doesn't matter?

I'm new to the whole streaming, flac, filter world....

Also, do HD streaming services (like Amazon HD) really send out up to 44.1 or higher? I'm perfectly fine listening to my 16/44.1 ripped CD flac files on my DAP.

 

[Sal1950]

So I downloaded the Don Grusin "Out of thin air" album ($29) and performed analysis both on the DSD version and PCM.

I've been thru all the debates with the DSD lovers and the noise shaping, etc but won't go there now.
I have to say I was shocked that they copied the DSD file noise and all to the high data rate PCM
Not being an expert on digital, I just always "assumed" the massive ultrasonic material was filtered out somewhere in the DAC chain and not allowed to get into the analog feed,
True or not, seeing all that potentially damaging data in the 192 file with no concern about any consequences IMHO is unconscionable?

 

[Sal1950]

So here is my question: What is the best audio quality format you guys would recommend to enjoy music. Is it an SACD, lossless, FLAC, 24khz, 48khz etc.?

Never pay for 192 or anything greater.
FLAC is lossless,
16/44.1 will give you everything you can hear.
24/48 is a nice comfort zone, giving you everything you could want and a little extra for piece of mind.

 

[amirm]

What's the return policy on this PS Audio music?

Good question. I don't know. But seeing how I "used" it to produce this video, I am not going to claim it but would be good to know what recourse others have.

 

[amirm]

Not being an expert on digital, I just always "assumed" the massive ultrasonic material was filtered out somewhere in the DAC chain and not allowed to get into the analog feed,
True or not, seeing all that potentially damaging data in the 192 file with no concern about any consequences IMHO is unconscionable?

It definitely goes through and certainly with PCM since it is part of the encoded format. I wish I could say they are a rare producer to do this but they are not. I don't think they have the technical expertise to do this. I do know that there are people who do like our old friend Bruce Brown from Puget Sound Studios. If they had given the content to him to properly master it, he would have taken care of this.

 

[amirm]

If they're well-mastered good performances (and some of them are) then they're worth it, even if the format claims don't stack up (as we know they don't).

The problem is that they didn't deliver on the other components either. This is a classic problem with audiophile recordings done this way in that they scrap the barrel to try to find someone who is willing to sign up to such projects for so little sales to audio nerds.

 

[Jim Shaw]

I actually feel sort of bad for Paul. In the bad old days, he parlayed his finesse with some audio engineers who knew something of what they were doing. Paul's engineering skills have been reportedly acquired as a disc jockey, and through rubbing elbows with a few actual engineers. But without the skills of mathematics and electronic circuits, his engineering department must be a major mystery to him. For sometime now, I have offered comments on his YT channel that attempted to point to some major errors in his thinking -- particularly Paul's basing an entire recording studio investment on just a couple of concepts:

1. DSD is fundamentally good (which it fundamentally isn't, especially), and an entire business plan can be made of DSD, and
2. That really competent, highly talented musicians will be attracted to nothing more than a niche audiophile record label. (Most won't.)

Paul's engineering skills seem especially minuscule, demonstrated by a few of his videos that incorporate a whiteboard. He gets it mostly wrong, then applies erasing skills and waves his arms, and the lesson falls flat on uncomprehending eyes.

I have paid considerable attention to this channel and Amir. Amir gets it right; I can find almost nothing over which to disagree with Amir.
....
To make great recordings, successfully, takes production skills in addition to artistic talent. Any teenager can stick microphones near a piano, have someone play it, and get a very unattractive result. DSD cannot make that recording great, desirable, or profitable.

I suspect that Paul is listening to some screwy advice, and I'm kind of glad I don't know his bankers. I don't wish him any ill. If, by some accident of fate, he succeeds, well, we'll all have a few good albums... maybe.
...
By way of qualification, I am a degreed electrical engineer with a major in the mathematics and statistics of signals, a registered professional engineer (retired) in two States, a musician (piano) with a grand piano, and experience early on with a recording studio making classical as well as popular music. I am not bragging; I am merely stating some qualifications. In this field, Amir knows a lot more than I do. Information science and technology, of which audio is a tiny subset, is a complex and arcane field -- as Sony and some of its executives had found the hard way.

 

[Billy Budapest]

No, because Octave Records is recording to DSD but mixing on a 30 year old Studer 900 series mixing desk. Nice desk, but no where close to 24-bit SNR.

I meant in general, can the analog recording equipment be quiet enough to take advantage of the DR afforded by 24-bit digital recording. Not only the mixing desk, you also have to keep in mind the SNR of the microphones, microphone amps, the grounding scheme employed with the recording equipment, etc., even before it hits an A/D converter.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

True or not, seeing all that potentially damaging data in the 192 file with no concern about any consequences IMHO is unconscionable?

Class D power amplifiers also have a good deal of out of band HF clocking residual. Perhaps not as bad as the subject of this review, but there nonetheless. DSD and class D operate on roughly the same principle.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I meant in general, can the analogue recording equipment be quiet enough to take advantage of the DR afforded by 24-bit digital recording. You have to keep in mind of SNR of the microphones, microphone amps, the grounding scheme employed with the recording equipment, etc.

And the acoustic noise floor of the room which is probably worse than 16 bit.