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Objectivism vs subjectivism and misinformation spreading?

watchnerd

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One of the things that attracted me to this group was @Sal1950 no MQA logo. I will never ever buy anything that has paid a licensing fee to MQA.

I have a new local audio pal. I am fond of him as he is a very nice person and a committed audiophile and also not new at it. I am driving him crazy because he wants to bring some high end cables over to my house so I can hear the difference. (He has a pair of JBL 4367s and a lot of expensive electronics.) I keep telling him biamping his 4367s will make more improvement than cables. Since my system is a four way quad amp it is inconceivable that you could hear a cable difference even if you could with a full range set up.

In this case, I hope you weren't also considering the JBL 4367s, because.....

"MQA says that Harman audio brand JBL Synthesis has joined as its latest partner. This is just the latest Harman brand to join, as JBL Synthesis follows both Mark Levinson and Arcam, both of whom had signed up with high quality music reproduction technology provider earlier."

https://www.strata-gee.com/mqa-reveals-new-partners-products-music-at-2019-cedia-expo/

I guess that the MQA infestation will bleed over to Revel at some level, too, at least through the Levinson electronics often co-sold.
 

gene_stl

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There is very little worry about me buying anything new.:p;)
Not to mention the list price for 4367 or M2 which are pretty high and out of my feasibility range.
It is sad though. MQA is marketing in its purest most absurd form. It is also why I resist ALL forms of DRM even ones that might be appropriate. Too many layers of bullshit.
I might be willing to buy a used piece that is MQA compatible. But I am also very unlikely to do much streaming.
 

gikigill

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FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) has morphed into self-evident truth-isms amongst the elite...

Nothing to do with elites. People are stupid enough on their own.

I am a specialist in my field, you can call me a "coastal elite" as I live in Melbourne and about 7km from a beach.

Doctors didn't have to deal with anti-vaxxers on a daily basis, they were respected and listened to.

Teachers didn't have to listen to parents who wouldn't last 5 minutes in a classroom.

Chefs didn't have to put up with morons who wouldn't know which end of a knife to hold and palates as barren as the Simpson desert.

"My ignorance is as good as your knowledge" is a phrase I,m reminded of everyday while I deal with people who have never stepped in my shoes or cant interpret a single thing in front of them. Jokes on them, I still get paid from their very pocket.

I assure you I never teach my builder, plumber or my electrician on how to do their jobs. I keep my mouth shut and let them get on with theirs as I realise I am not skilled in their trades.

We have the largest known source of information available to mankind today and people still choose to stick their hands in shit instead of looking for the pearls of knowledge and truth. Reality doesn't go away even if you don't believe in it as a lot of Aussie towns are now discovering with the drought and the warnings about climate change and this elite is fighting and participating in protests for them to ensure their survival and to provide alternate arrangements. Their denial however isn't going to suddenly lead to rainfall.

As Carl Sagan said:

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

Apply the above to PSAudio buyers and you,ll notice even the so-called "Elite" are not above being bamboozled as you would have to be pretty well-off to spend $6k on a DAC.

They chose to believe a charlatan, elites didnt make them choose one considering their is plenty of information of available on DACs and anything else you might want be interested in

I own a couple of well measuring and sounding DACs, both are well under $1000 and I spent a few hours researching before putting my money down.

I read ASR a lot more and have practically left other audio forums because its more in tune with reality than a bamboozle.Does that make me an elite?


QUCIK EDIT: "What I don’t like is the apparent guise of science to routinely damage hard earned reputations of many excellent companies and their products"

This is the reply of one of the PS forum members who is not pleased with the PSAudio review. No elites necessary as the stupidity speaks for itself or else Amir is also an elite who uses science to bust myths.
 
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Eirikur

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I read ASR a lot more and have practically left other audio forums because its more in tune with reality than a bamboozle. Does that make me an elite?
Well, according to some that makes you part of a cult. Not sure at what point initiation rites with chicken blood and the goat's gall bladder start...
So far it seems to be mostly text and graphs, occasionally accompanied by a decapitated pink panther figurine.
 

gikigill

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Well, according to some that makes you part of a cult. Not sure at what point initiation rites with chicken blood and the goat's gall bladder start...
So far it seems to be mostly text and graphs, occasionally accompanied by a decapitated pink panther figurine.

I am from the city of Calcutta. Goat sacrifices to the Goddess Kali are no big deal so bring it on.

Used to live just a 10 minute walk away from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalighat_Kali_Temple

Atleast there will be goat curry to eat afterwards. Preferably with boiled rice and a heavy beer.

Jokes apart, if ASR ever starts pulling the same bullshit as others, i.ll be left homeless on the internet again.
 

watchnerd

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So in the name of being more objective when it comes to subjective matters:

I'd love to see future SINAD graphs have a horizontal bar that denotes how deep into the noise floor we can actually hear.

Because some of the fetishism here for SINAD > - 100 dB, when it's actually not subjectively detectable, can be a bit cultish, or at least less than rational.

If we're going to call out others for their logical inconsistencies, we should hold ASR itself to the same standards.
 

jsrtheta

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There was usually a section where he would respond directly to readers or others in the industry without leaving room for doubt about what he thought. I will find a few good ones tomorrow.

This is the archive...any would bring a few laughs.

https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/audio_critic_down.htm

Edit:
https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_24_r.pdf

Page 10 and on...

Later in that issue, he gives an individual assessment of many people well known in the audio world. Here is a bit on:

"Larry Archibald (Stereophile)
The arch- in his name signifies archenemy—the
principal, most powerful enemy of scientific discipline in
equipment evaluation and of accountability in audio jour-
nalism. No, there's nothing fiendish about him as a per-
son; he is a nice, intelligent guy to have a drink with; but
he is a total opportunist as a publisher. His magazines tell
you what he believes you want to hear, because that's
where the money is, not what you ought to know, namely
the unvarnished realities of the subject matter."


Anything new under the sun?

"Hip Boots". Savage and brilliant.
 

Wombat

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Marketing is very powerful.

Humans are not as logical as we think.

See tobacco industry.

'Whiter than white' in various guises sold lots of toothpaste and laundry detergent.
 

Mtbf

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I'd love to see future SINAD graphs have a horizontal bar that denotes how deep into the noise floor we can actually hear.
Why fixate on a single number? What is the use or the rationale? The world isn’t black or white, there will always be grey zones. This place is an oasis, with an ever growing number of devices tested extensively, in a consistent comparative way. A device has to measure good for me to even consider buying it. But having had to many negative experiences in the past trusting on numbers alone, listening for me is the final and essential part of the process. Even renowned designers work that way.
 

JJB70

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Yeah, lifestyle products can be cool.

Can I get a shout out for Bose?

I think I have said this before, but I find it quite telling that those people who I know who have Bose products are very happy with them and keep them for a long time. Compared with the typical audiophile chopping and changing and looking for something better I kind of think that maybe Bose buyers are the sensible ones in many ways. Their noise cancelling headphones are superb.
 

gikigill

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Bose for all its faults doesn't boast that their headphones will make you see stars in the day.

Their ad blurb is just the stuff you see in marketing and doesn't claim to have ethereal treble, honey coated mids and brain melting bass.

I use Bose noise-cancelling headphones solely for plane trips and that's about it. Hard to beat for the price of AUD300.
 

KozmoNaut

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I just can't come to terms with those Bose home theater setups with the teeny-tiny satellite speakers and the shoebox-sized "subwoofer", but the owners are very satisfied, so who am I to complain?

At least Bose is relatively honest about it. They sell you "room-filling sound" from unobtrusive devices, which is what a lot of people want, rather than the utmost in accuracy.

The enormous popularity of soundbars (with optional wireless subs) also speaks to this demand for good enough sound that is easy to set up and sounds impressive.
 

Wombat

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I wonder how many 'objectivist' audio proponents are comfortable strongly supporting populist(subjectivist) figures in other areas of life? o_O
 

JJB70

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I think that a lot of this comes down to the deeply ingrained assumption that price is a function of quality and performance. Surely a $1000 DAC must be better than one costing $100, right? Better made from quality components and better SQ. How many of us will honestly say that we are immune to this assumption? I can't think of anything else I am interested in (I am not into fashion or cosmetics....) where the link between price and quality /performance is more disconnected than audio. Yes, at a certain level if you want high class components, premium materials, top class build etc you have to pay for it. However, you don't need to pay that much for excellent build and good quality, and a lot of expensive gear is really not very well made and rather shoddy. And good SQ has essentially been commoditised. I noted in another thread today that you can buy AKG K712 headphones with a JDS Atom amplifier and for a combined price that is barely mid price in today's market have access to headphone performance as good as the overwhelming majority of people will ever need and which is well into the area of marginal gains. However there is too much at stake for some to admit that you don't need to spend much for excellent SQ and good quality gear.
 
OP
D

Drone/doom

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I noted in another thread today that you can buy AKG K712 headphones with a JDS Atom amplifier and for a combined price that is barely mid price in today's market have access to headphone performance as good as the overwhelming majority of people will ever need and which is well into the area of marginal gains. However there is too much at stake for some to admit that you don't need to spend much for excellent SQ and good quality gear.

The ones who won't admit K712 and a ER3SE are steals tech wise. Are the kind that will just shell out for a HD800S with no care that TOTL headphones are junk on price to performance scale. My ER4SR's bury past headphones i had detail wise all for £359.

There a IEM reviewer who actually rates by price/driver type because this reminded me of him more or less refusing putting his reviews through DBT??. lol
 

JJB70

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I bought my Etymotic ER4 SR IEMs for £220 as B stock, and a Shanling M3s DAP for £170 in a clearance offer. Combined price less than £400 and access to superb sound enjoyed on nice gear with a very nice quality tactile feel. And to be honest I find my Sony smartphone is just as good as the Shanling except for more limited volume. High quality sound has never been so accessible.
 

Soniclife

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I think that a lot of this comes down to the deeply ingrained assumption that price is a function of quality and performance. Surely a $1000 DAC must be better than one costing $100, right? Better made from quality components and better SQ. How many of us will honestly say that we are immune to this assumption?
I really expect very few are immune, a lot of people like to think they are but are in reality deluding themselves. I like the daily reminders I get from this site on this point.
Did this thought process exist before advertising, or has advertising just exploited it for it's own ends?
 

Soniclife

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High quality sound has never been so accessible.
I agree, I also believe it's getting accessed more than ever before, for all the talk about crap ear buds and Bluetooth speakers that people buy and use, and lots of them are crap, I think there is also a lot of people, often the same people, who have a good headphone system of modest cost.
 

graz_lag

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I really expect very few are immune, a lot of people like to think they are but are in reality deluding themselves. I like the daily reminders I get from this site on this point.
Did this thought process exist before advertising, or has advertising just exploited it for it's own ends?

Luxury goods are historically thought of as indicators of social status - in buying them, consumers signal their membership of an elite and exclusive club ...
It's the jungle's law
We, rational animals, have achieved the social cohesion through tribal patterns that have created a social hierarchy.
The concept of luxury has always been closely associated with social class.
From a multi-million-dollar yacht to a $150,000 pair of Focal Grande Utopia speakers, luxury goods have been an instantly recognizable way to show social status or power - and zoologically speaking, these are key elements of leadership.
 

Hipper

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Интересная новинка от Fiio была анонсирована недавно в фейсбуке - Fiio Jade Audio EW1 (саббренд Фиио) .
Компания Fiio славится на рынке портативного хи-фи качеством и технологичностью.

Фишки и характеристики Fiio Jade Audio EW1:
- Qualcomm QCC3020 чип Bluetooth 5.0
- Поддержка SBC / AAC / aptX Bluetooth кодеков
- Активное шумоподавление CVC 8.0
- Время работы 21 час
- Низкая цена, на мой взгляд

I can't argue with that.
 
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