• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

Objectivism vs subjectivism and misinformation spreading?

Joined
Sep 13, 2019
Messages
32
Likes
13
#1
So while while bored i was reading Reddit, Seems like the headphone sub loves spreading the idea that all DAC's sound different it sounds like the rants by people upset they wasted money on £500+ gear?. Which is so ironic when they downvote anyone who dares say the HD6XX is a overhyped headphone and there are much better choices?.
 

pozz

Machine
Forum Donor
Editor
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
1,487
Likes
2,119
#2
On Gearslutz, which I used to treat as a good source for audio info, there was a recent 100+ page thread about 192 vs. 44.1.

It happens.
 

BDWoody

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
1,899
Likes
3,407
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
#3
On Gearslutz, which I used to treat as a good source for audio info, there was a recent 100+ page thread about 192 vs. 44.1.

It happens.
It's been going on for decades. I will sometimes read old issues (available online) of 'The Audio Critic,' and there really is nothing new under the sun. Same arguments, same silliness...

Peter Aczel could be quite...punishing...
 
OP
D
Joined
Sep 13, 2019
Messages
32
Likes
13
Thread Starter #4
On Gearslutz, which I used to treat as a good source for audio info, there was a recent 100+ page thread about 192 vs. 44.1.

It happens.
I've seen 50 page arguments on v0/320 vs lossless by ones who never show proof. The Reddit tone shift is pathetic when they would bash Head Fi being a subjective hive mind in the past, May aswell defend cables at that point. lol
 

pozz

Machine
Forum Donor
Editor
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
1,487
Likes
2,119
#6
I've seen 50 page arguments on v0/320 vs lossless by ones who never show proof.
Strange that it's more important to argue principles most of the time. I wonder about it pretty often.
 

BDWoody

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
1,899
Likes
3,407
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
#7
Any quick examples come to mind?
There was usually a section where he would respond directly to readers or others in the industry without leaving room for doubt about what he thought. I will find a few good ones tomorrow.

This is the archive...any would bring a few laughs.

https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/audio_critic_down.htm

Edit:
https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_24_r.pdf

Page 10 and on...

Later in that issue, he gives an individual assessment of many people well known in the audio world. Here is a bit on:

"Larry Archibald (Stereophile)
The arch- in his name signifies archenemy—the
principal, most powerful enemy of scientific discipline in
equipment evaluation and of accountability in audio jour-
nalism. No, there's nothing fiendish about him as a per-
son; he is a nice, intelligent guy to have a drink with; but
he is a total opportunist as a publisher. His magazines tell
you what he believes you want to hear, because that's
where the money is, not what you ought to know, namely
the unvarnished realities of the subject matter."


Anything new under the sun?
 
Last edited:

MSNWatch

Active Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
139
Likes
151
#8
There was usually a section where he would respond directly to readers or others in the industry without leaving room for doubt about what he thought. I will find a few good ones tomorrow.

This is the archive...any would bring a few laughs.

https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/audio_critic_down.htm

Edit:
https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_24_r.pdf

Page 10 and on...

Later in that issue, he gives an individual assessment of many people well known in the audio world. Here is a bit on:

"Larry Archibald (Stereophile)
The arch- in his name signifies archenemy—the
principal, most powerful enemy of scientific discipline in
equipment evaluation and of accountability in audio jour-
nalism. No, there's nothing fiendish about him as a per-
son; he is a nice, intelligent guy to have a drink with; but
he is a total opportunist as a publisher. His magazines tell
you what he believes you want to hear, because that's
where the money is, not what you ought to know, namely
the unvarnished realities of the subject matter."


Anything new under the sun?
Nothing much different with the white hat black hat list also.
 

watchnerd

Major Contributor
Beer Hero
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
6,414
Likes
3,364
Location
Seattle Area, USA
#9
So while while bored i was reading Reddit, Seems like the headphone sub loves spreading the idea that all DAC's sound different it sounds like the rants by people upset they wasted money on £500+ gear?. Which is so ironic when they downvote anyone who dares say the HD6XX is a overhyped headphone and there are much better choices?.
Audio sub culture thrives on tribal fights, and has been so for half a century.

Other variations:

tubes vs solid state
MOSFET vs other solid state
class A vs class D
direct drive vs belt drive
planars vs boxes
horns vs everything
negative feedback vs not
etc
etc

oh, and:

MQA vs regular lossless
 

DownUnderGazza

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Messages
80
Likes
203
Location
New Zealand
#10
FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) has morphed into self-evident truth-isms amongst the elite...

Back in the day when vinyl was the only choice, it was quite important to match turntable cartridges to phono pre-amps. It mattered, get it wrong and you could quite clearly hear the difference. Yes, I went through that agony with my first turntable...

Little by little, instead of establishing good guidelines and promoting scientific rationale (and configurable phono pre-amps), arose the sub-class of knowledgeable gurus, the sales-people and reviewers. Of course it didn't take long before it was self-evident that not only did 'correct' matching between phono cartridges and pre-amps matter, but of course so did matching everything else matter.

The age of the GURU was born. Suddenly EVERYTHING mattered, and only the chosen few could pontificate with authority, because obviously they 'knew'... Naturally, the more something cost, the more it mattered.

It wasn't just HiFi jewellery anymore, it was a case of making sure every Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt was pandered to to make sure what you purchased 'matched'. It mattered.

It was self-evident and obvious... because the guru had pontificated
 

watchnerd

Major Contributor
Beer Hero
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
6,414
Likes
3,364
Location
Seattle Area, USA
#11
FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) has morphed into self-evident truth-isms amongst the elite...

Back in the day when vinyl was the only choice, it was quite important to match turntable cartridges to phono pre-amps. It mattered, get it wrong and you could quite clearly hear the difference. Yes, I went through that agony with my first turntable...

Little by little, instead of establishing good guidelines and promoting scientific rationale (and configurable phono pre-amps), arose the sub-class of knowledgeable gurus, the sales-people and reviewers. Of course it didn't take long before it was self-evident that not only did 'correct' matching between phono cartridges and pre-amps matter, but of course so did matching everything else matter.

The age of the GURU was born. Suddenly EVERYTHING mattered, and only the chosen few could pontificate with authority, because obviously they 'knew'... Naturally, the more something cost, the more it mattered.

It wasn't just HiFi jewellery anymore, it was a case of making sure every Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt was pandered to to make sure what you purchased 'matched'. It mattered.

It was self-evident and obvious... because the guru had pontificated
I agree that the need to tweak LP setup was not only mandatory, but I'd add it seemed to fill a psychological need for some to tinker.

Which, decades, later, got morphed into DAC/digital tinkering, where it serves no real technical purpose...but still fills a psychological need.
 

BillG

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 12, 2018
Messages
1,234
Likes
1,382
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
#12
Which, decades, later, got morphed into DAC/digital tinkering, where it serves no real technical purpose...but still fills a psychological need.
USB reclockers would be a fine example of this: Some dealer was promoting a $3K USD one on our streaming forum recently and got all kinds of annoyed when I challenged him on the "necessity" of such a device. After I linked several technical documents disproving the need for one, his final reply was "But have you heard it?" :facepalm:
 

watchnerd

Major Contributor
Beer Hero
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
6,414
Likes
3,364
Location
Seattle Area, USA
#13
USB reclockers would be a fine example of this: Some dealer was promoting a $3K USD one on our streaming forum recently and got all kinds of annoyed when I challenged him on the "necessity" of such a device. After I linked several technical documents disproving the need for one, his final reply was "But have you heard it?" :facepalm:
At least it claims to actually do something (albeit unnecessary), unlike the mysterious functionality of the TotalDAC magic cable thingie.
 

JJB70

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
2,022
Likes
4,176
Location
Milton Keynes, England
#14
FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) has morphed into self-evident truth-isms amongst the elite...

Back in the day when vinyl was the only choice, it was quite important to match turntable cartridges to phono pre-amps. It mattered, get it wrong and you could quite clearly hear the difference. Yes, I went through that agony with my first turntable...

Little by little, instead of establishing good guidelines and promoting scientific rationale (and configurable phono pre-amps), arose the sub-class of knowledgeable gurus, the sales-people and reviewers. Of course it didn't take long before it was self-evident that not only did 'correct' matching between phono cartridges and pre-amps matter, but of course so did matching everything else matter.

The age of the GURU was born. Suddenly EVERYTHING mattered, and only the chosen few could pontificate with authority, because obviously they 'knew'... Naturally, the more something cost, the more it mattered.

It wasn't just HiFi jewellery anymore, it was a case of making sure every Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt was pandered to to make sure what you purchased 'matched'. It mattered.

It was self-evident and obvious... because the guru had pontificated
I tend to think one of the reasons for the outrageous nonsense we see in digital audio is that some enjoyed all the tweaking and setting up that was necessary with vinyl, and suppliers and shops wanted to replace the old vinyl honey pot with new stuff to keep the cookie jar full. Even in the 80's before digital was fully commoditised you didn't have to spend much to get a good CD player which was a plug and play item requiring basically no knowledge or thought and you could easily get a nicely made audibly transparent amplifier without needing to spend that much (in fact, if anything it seems like in many cases amps went backwards from the mid 90's or so as the big Japanese outfits withdrew from hifi). Even then it was clear that if you wanted good sound what you needed was good speakers (and good is not a synonym for expensive) speakers which were well set up. But where is the money in that? So suppliers, helped by shill reviewers (were they complicit scam artists or sincere idiots?) created a whole new voodoo mysticism around digital, cables, the cult of analogue is best, venerating coloured sound while denouncing tools such as EQ and DSP, deriding measured performance, venerating shoddily made junk from one person boutique manufacturers whilst dismissing beautifully engineered gear from companies like Pioneer, Sony and Yamaha. I remember in the 80's and early 90's the big Japanese brands supplied very detailed technical specifications for their equipment (unlike today, they actually included useful info in their sales info) which demonstrated an incredible degree of engineering depth and attention to measured performance and which tended to be verified in independent tests. Time and time again I'd see these products dismissed by reviewers and criticised for sterile sound whilst the same reviewer would wax lyrical about something that would have probably gotten a Sony or Yamaha engineer fired if they'd tried something similar at the time. And things got much worse as the market for hifi shrank and the main market moved to AV then MP3 players and wireless speakers, becoming steadily more cultish. Luckily there have always been voices of sanity, Peter Aczel, Nwavguy, Amir and others here, but the cultists always try to marginalise rational enthusiasts as an existential threat to the whole business model they've relied on since the 80's. Does anyone else remember those green highlight pens?
 

Hipper

Active Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
251
Likes
187
Location
Herts., England
#16
When I was first able to buy a record player I just bunged on a record and listened - that was it.

And all I looked for in music was what I liked to listen to, nothing about quality of recording, format, mastering etc..

Life was so simple in those days! Ahhhhhhh.
 

Krunok

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Messages
4,600
Likes
2,766
Location
Zg, Cro
#18
On Gearslutz, which I used to treat as a good source for audio info, there was a recent 100+ page thread about 192 vs. 44.1.

It happens.
That is because opinion is like an asshole - everybody has it. Only few however understand what they are talking about.
 
Last edited:

pozz

Machine
Forum Donor
Editor
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
1,487
Likes
2,119
#20
There was usually a section where he would respond directly to readers or others in the industry without leaving room for doubt about what he thought. I will find a few good ones tomorrow.

This is the archive...any would bring a few laughs.

https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/audio_critic_down.htm

Edit:
https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_24_r.pdf

Page 10 and on...

Later in that issue, he gives an individual assessment of many people well known in the audio world. Here is a bit on:

"Larry Archibald (Stereophile)
The arch- in his name signifies archenemy—the principal, most powerful enemy of scientific discipline in equipment evaluation and of accountability in audio journalism. No, there's nothing fiendish about him as a person; he is a nice, intelligent guy to have a drink with; but he is a total opportunist as a publisher. His magazines tell you what he believes you want to hear, because that's where the money is, not what you ought to know, namely the unvarnished realities of the subject matter."

Anything new under the sun?
He's a great writer. A real change from the verbose style of other audio magazines.
 
Top Bottom