Objective measurements of phono cartridges

[Frank Dernie]

Already cited several hundred such records. The King Super Analogue Decca LPs and the Analog Productions top 100 Jazz series.

Can't find any data on these discs.
Having worked in the business I absolutely do not believe what you claim.

Edit.
I could add that the mastering engineer may well have sent a minimally edited file to the guy at the cutting lathe but he will manipulate the file in order for cutting and manufacturing to be possible.

 

[Analog Scott]

Koetsu’s rolling off from 2kHz !
No wonder their ‘midrange’ is often remarked upon!
Keith

Which model?

 

[Analog Scott]

Can't find any data on these discs.
Having worked in the business I absolutely do not believe what you claim.

What sort of proof would it take?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Which model?

They all have a similar characteristic. The most recent test data is for the Onyx Platinum. The roll off starts around 2kHz, about 3dB down at 10 kHz and falls off cliff at around 18kHz. The techdas iirc is not dissimilar whilst the Roksan Apheta is almost the opposite with a rising response to a big peak in the top octave. Ortofons tend to be flat. Depends on where you are on the record and the stylus profile, of course.
A parallel tracking arm is essential for low distortion replay.

 

[Analog Scott]

They all have a similar characteristic. The most recent test data is for the Onyx Platinum. The roll off starts around 2kHz, about 3dB down at 10 kHz and falls off cliff at around 18kHz. The techdas iirc is not dissimilar whilst the Roksan Apheta is almost the opposite with a rising response to a big peak in the top octave. Ortofons tend to be flat. Depends on where you are on the record and the stylus profile, of course.
A parallel tracking arm is essential for low distortion replay.

So it's the platinum series.

 

[Cosmik]

I am wondering if something is being missed. In the old days, the recording process itself was geared towards vinyl. Producers and engineers wouldn't use techniques that they would know would need heavy-handed manipulation at the mastering or cutting stage - they would basically ensure it wasn't too dynamic 'at source'. As such, I could believe that it would be possible to cut the record without having to do too much to it.

If it is left to, effectively, a technician to take emergency measures on the composite final mix, they are doing what we were discussing in another thread: smearing everything together, because you can't fix some rogue element in the recording without also affecting everything else to some extent. Much cleaner if you can 'tame' each element individually as the music is recorded and then mixed.

 

[Frank Dernie]

So it's the platinum series.

They are all about the same frequency balance iirc.
Cartridge makes tend to have a house sound which their fans like.
I like Koetsus myself.

 

[Analog Scott]

They are all about the same frequency balance iirc.
Cartridge makes tend to have a house sound which their fans like.
I like Koetsus myself.

I have had a Koetsu cartridge as my primary cartridge for the past 32 years. Love em. Not surprised about a 3 db roll off by 10khz. Most MC cartridges do the opposite and have a rise in the upper frequencies.

 

[Analog Scott]

I am wondering if something is being missed. In the old days, the recording process itself was geared towards vinyl. Producers and engineers wouldn't use techniques that they would know would need heavy-handed manipulation at the mastering or cutting stage - they would basically ensure it wasn't too dynamic 'at source'. As such, I could believe that it would be possible to cut the record without having to do too much to it.

If it is left to, effectively, a technician to take emergency measures on the composite final mix, they are doing what we were discussing in another thread: smearing everything together, because you can't fix some rogue element in the recording without also affecting everything else to some extent. Much cleaner if you can 'tame' each element individually as the music is recorded and then mixed.

It is almost ironic that one of the most difficult things to cut onto lacquer are brick walled rock/pop recordings. It actually is pretty hard to capture that kind of aweful on vinyl. And I confess that I haven't really given those recordings much thought in the matter of what can and can not be cut onto lacquer. Or metal.....Can't ignore metal mastering.

 

[watchnerd]

OK what would you accept as reasonable proof that such records exist?

Graphs from measurements would be nice.

 

[Analog Scott]

Graphs from measurements would be nice.

How would that show no limiting, no added compression and no EQ used in cutting a record?

 

[Don Hills]

What sort of proof would it take?

Signed affidavits from the producers and mastering engineers would go some way towards it.

 

[Analog Scott]

Signed affidavits from the producers and mastering engineers would go some way towards it.

https://imgur.com/gallery/VTBqq

 

[watchnerd]

How would that show no limiting, no added compression and no EQ used in cutting a record?

I'm not looking for proof of that. I'm interested in stereo vs mono bass at what frequencies, phase, and volume.

 

[Analog Scott]

I'm not looking for proof of that. I'm interested in stereo vs mono bass at what frequencies, phase, and volume.

I think this addresses all questions in regards to the King Super Analogue Decca classical LPs.
https://imgur.com/gallery/VTBqq

 

[Cosmik]

I'm not sure what the point of this 'challenge is'..? Ultimately, all it says is that it is possible to create a recording that is compatible with cutting a vinyl record directly. That is, the recording is of a genre that is not too dynamic, or the producers are prepared to compromise on the level/duration of the record, or the necessary 'mastering' (avoiding out-of-phase bass, limiting high frequency energy, keeping dynamic range within limits, etc.) has been considered during the recording rather than leaving it to a technician or mastering person to apply as an afterthought. Why is that so remarkable?

I have learned a new expression, though. Stem mastering: providing the mastering person with a number of 'sub-mix' grouped tracks to play with rather than just a stereo mix. Not common, apparently, but likely to result in a better sound in the end.

 

[Analog Scott]

I'm not sure what the point of this 'challenge is'..? Ultimately, all it says is that it is possible to create a recording that is compatible with cutting a vinyl record directly. That is, the recording is of a genre that is not too dynamic, or the producers are prepared to compromise on the level/duration of the record, or the necessary 'mastering' (avoiding out-of-phase bass, limiting high frequency energy, keeping dynamic range within limits, etc.) has been considered during the recording rather than leaving it to a technician or mastering person to apply as an afterthought. Why is that so remarkable?

I have learned a new expression, though. Stem mastering: providing the mastering person with a number of 'sub-mix' grouped tracks to play with rather than just a stereo mix. Not common, apparently, but likely to result in a better sound in the end.

The King Super Analogue Decca LPs are Classical. The Fantasy Top 100 Jazz series by Analog Productions are Jazz. Are these genres that you consider "not too dynamic?"

I knew this would devolve into all kinds of spin and moving goal posts....

 

[Cosmik]

The King Super Analogue Decca LPs are Classical. The Fantasy Top 100 Jazz series by Analog Productions are Jazz. Are these genres that you consider "not too dynamic?"

I knew this would devolve into all kinds of spin and moving goal posts....

I thought I was agreeing with you! Unlike everyone else, I believe that it is possible to cut an LP without needing a separate 'master'. (I did think your reply to my last post was a bit 'disconnected').

I now see that the two propositions are:
1. Any finished mix needs radical 'mastering' to make it compatible with the fragile and limited medium of vinyl.
2. Vinyl is amazing. Mastering is only used by philistines and cretins seeking to discredit the medium. There is no type of recording that is too dynamic to be committed to vinyl without mastering.

I don't believe either of them.

(And as for the "genre" of "classical" - it's a very wide range! I was thinking more upon the lines of the genre of string quartets as compared to symphonic, for example. Hope I haven't caused anyone any offence with that.)

Edit: and before another occasional poster aggressively condemns me for having an opinion on something which I don't directly dabble in (vinyl) ("You're not experienced in it"), well I should point out that I do have 'a dog in this fight' so to speak because I listen to digital transcriptions of recordings from the 1960s, 70s and 80s. If the recording process itself was carried out with vinyl in mind, then this influences what I am hearing, even the so-called 're-masters' and 're-mixes'. I think I'm allowed to have an opinion on it. I can work out what's going on without vast, direct, recent experience of fiddling about with rotating discs, pivoted rods and little electromagnetic pickups.

 

[Analog Scott]

I thought I was agreeing with you! Unlike everyone else, I believe that it is possible to cut an LP without needing a separate 'master'. (I did think your reply to my last post was a bit 'disconnected').

I now see that the two propositions are:
1. Any finished mix needs radical 'mastering' to make it compatible with the fragile and limited medium of vinyl.
2. Vinyl is amazing. Mastering is only used by philistines and cretins seeking to discredit the medium. There is no type of recording that is too dynamic to be committed to vinyl without mastering.

I don't believe either of them.

(And as for the "genre" of "classical" - it's a very wide range! I was thinking more upon the lines of the genre of string quartets as compared to symphonic, for example. Hope I haven't caused anyone any offence with that.)

Edit: and before another occasional poster aggressively condemns me for having an opinion on something which I don't directly dabble in (vinyl) ("You're not experienced in it"), well I should point out that I do have 'a dog in this fight' so to speak because I listen to digital transcriptions of recordings from the 1960s, 70s and 80s. If the recording process itself was carried out with vinyl in mind, then this influences what I am hearing, even the so-called 're-masters' and 're-mixes'. I think I'm allowed to have an opinion on it. I can work out what's going on without vast, direct, recent experience of fiddling about with rotating discs, pivoted rods and little electromagnetic pickups.

My post was in response to your comment that " the recording is of a genre that is not too dynamic," I merely pointed out that my citations were of Classical and Jazz LPs and asked you if you thought those genres were not "too dynamic?" So that was the "connection." Yes there is a wide range within the genre of classical music. A range that is fully covered by the King Super Analogue Decca catalog. The same goes for the Analog Productions top Fantasy 100 Jazz series. It pretty much covers the genre of Jazz

 

[Analog Scott]

https://www.discogs.com/label/830644-The-Super-Analogue-Disc