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Objective measurements of phono cartridges

Blumlein 88

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Any half-decent modern RIAA stage can get to within 0.5dB of the RIAA curve, very few cartridges are that close, especially at HF, and almost none at LF due to arm/cartridge/compliance resonance.

I've tried measuring the frequency response of cartridges, but always fall down with the accuracy of the test LP. Using white noise or pink noise rather depends on how white or how pink the noise actually is. In many cases, they're not particularly good.

Many years ago I had the Decca Frequency Response LP, on which it was stated that the bands above 10kHz were good for 5 plays (yes, only 5!) if the accuracy was to be maintained, which if I recall, was something quite good like 0.25dB. Decca were probably being a bit pessimistic, but nevertheless, it's indicative that LP's HF is pretty fragile. Thay may explain in part why the noise-bands of test LPs aren't reliable for frequency response measurements.

As an aside, this was found to be the case with the old CD-4 quadraphonic LPs where the ultrasonic carrier carrying the rear channel information was destroyed after only a few plays.

Consequently, I question the accuracy of any of the reviews of cartridges as I can't believe they change the LPs that frequently.

S.

Haven't thought of this in years. I had an all in one system when a teenager. It was Quadraphonic including Quad phono and Quad 8 track. The CD-4 type LPs didn't have lots of rear channel to start with on such a TT. After a few plays there was nearly none. The Quad 8 tracks were much better for Quad effect as it used a pair of the stereo tracks to have 4 channels.
 

Arnold Krueger

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Yes agreed, however, that Decca claimed their Frequency Response Test disc was only good for 5 plays is indicative of a problem at HF (above 10kHz). At lower frequencies presumably there's much less wear. We're still playing 50 year old LPs that have had countless plays, yet they are still playable, so the mid and low frequencies are still there.
Having said that, at my age and with my hearing, anything over 13-14kHz is inaudible so I wouldn't know if it was still there or not.

S.


My solution to the problem of test disk wear is to have at least 2. Use one for routine testing, and the other for tests for the record, and to check the condition of the first one.
 

ivanj

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BTW, if you really want to hear how the Mercury recordings were supposed to sound, get up to date, man. Listen to the SACD remasters in 3-channel, as they were recorded. That is how I listen to them.


What is the system you use to play said SACDs and extract the third channel as originally recorded? are there instructions about how this can be done? For digital fans and music lovers this could be a knockout.
 

Blumlein 88

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What is the system you use to play said SACDs and extract the third channel as originally recorded? are there instructions about how this can be done? For digital fans and music lovers this could be a knockout.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/R1941A6E1UX3UD

The SACDs had both a 3 channel and stereo version on the same disc. I don't have any, but my understanding was you selected to play the MCH version on the SACD and it put out the signal in a 5.1 format with nothing in the two rear channels.
 
OP
jhaider

jhaider

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What is the system you use to play said SACDs and extract the third channel as originally recorded? are there instructions about how this can be done? For digital fans and music lovers this could be a knockout.

Any home theater setup with a universal disk reader (OPPO, late-model Sony, etc.) and an AVR or surround pre-pro can play these recordings. They are wonderful. And for a time at least they were ridiculously cheap. I don't know how much they cost now, I don't think I paid more than $10 for a single one of mine!
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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What is the system you use to play said SACDs and extract the third channel as originally recorded? are there instructions about how this can be done? For digital fans and music lovers this could be a knockout.
Right, as @Blumlein 88 indicates, the SACD contains a CD-compatible 44/16 stereo layer, plus a hirez DSD layer containing both the stereo mix and the Mch 3.0 mix. A Mch SACD player allows the choice which of those 3 programs to play. And, it is easy to switch between the more comparable DSD stereo and DSD Mch, though switching might force a restart from the beginning of a track. I do not play from optical disc, however. I now play my SACDs from files ripped to my PC and NAS.

The 3-channel mix is in a 5.0 "container" with the surround channels nulled out and silent. So, playback in 3.0 on a Mch system is automatic with no special settings required.
 

Frank Dernie

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Right, as @Blumlein 88 indicates, the SACD contains a CD-compatible 44/16 stereo layer, plus a hirez DSD layer containing both the stereo mix and the Mch 3.0 mix. A Mch SACD player allows the choice which of those 3 programs to play. And, it is easy to switch between the more comparable DSD stereo and DSD Mch, though switching might force a restart from the beginning of a track. I do not play from optical disc, however. I now play my SACDs from files ripped to my PC and NAS.

The 3-channel mix is in a 5.0 "container" with the surround channels nulled out and silent. So, playback in 3.0 on a Mch system is automatic with no special settings required.
I didn't know about these discs but I did know the original recordings were 3-track. It is on record that Wilma Cozart, who directed all the recordings, and George Piros, the cutting engineer, blended the 3 tracks into 2 on the fly whilst cutting the lacquers, presumably to avoid the loss of an extra analogue copy. They "strove to reproduce the full dynamic range of the original tapes without jeopardising reliable stylus tracking. It was not easy to overcome the limitations of the tape-to-disc process, defying the inner groove perils, cutting head quirks and unpredictability of lacquer quality".
The balance of the original recording was entirely achieved by moving the microphone position relative to the instruments. I was taught to do the same for my own recordings when I first started.
On the Mercury SACDs do you know how the relative levels of the 3 channels were balanced? I am sure a digital recording can get the full dynamic range and frequency response of all 3 channels, but given the microphone layout I would not imagine the raw balance of the 3 levels would be correct unadjusted?
I am afraid I only use surround for the few films I watch in my listening room and have no center channel any more since it would be physically in the way in the current layout, so the Mercury SACDs would be a waste for me :(
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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I didn't know about these discs but I did know the original recordings were 3-track. It is on record that Wilma Cozart, who directed all the recordings, and George Piros, the cutting engineer, blended the 3 tracks into 2 on the fly whilst cutting the lacquers, presumably to avoid the loss of an extra analogue copy. They "strove to reproduce the full dynamic range of the original tapes without jeopardising reliable stylus tracking. It was not easy to overcome the limitations of the tape-to-disc process, defying the inner groove perils, cutting head quirks and unpredictability of lacquer quality".
The balance of the original recording was entirely achieved by moving the microphone position relative to the instruments. I was taught to do the same for my own recordings when I first started.
On the Mercury SACDs do you know how the relative levels of the 3 channels were balanced? I am sure a digital recording can get the full dynamic range and frequency response of all 3 channels, but given the microphone layout I would not imagine the raw balance of the 3 levels would be correct unadjusted?
I am afraid I only use surround for the few films I watch in my listening room and have no center channel any more since it would be physically in the way in the current layout, so the Mercury SACDs would be a waste for me :(
Frank - the Mercury and RCA 3-channels appear to me to have been balanced for a properly calibrated, equal channel loudness playback setup, as all Mch recordings should be. No adjustments to center volume are necessary beyond that. However, it is possible that the final overall loudness is slightly greater than 2-channel due to the addition of the center channel on playback. The impression, as I recall, is mainly of a better center stage image and "fill", including apparent depth.
 

John B

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Does anybody have a 96khz RIAA curve in white noise? I have the inverted ones from Scott Wurcer but need a non-inverted one to build an impulse response and convolve RIAA de emphasis in my stack. Thanks! Better yet does anybody have the impulse responses already? : )
 
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