NY Times visits Ojas

[mhardy6647]

That is a collector's item.

In my tests the 511B when crossed over at 800Hz or higher actually worked quite well. Ultimately I still got rid of mine too.

A friend took a pair of my prototype cabinets, finished them nicely and stuck 511s in them and they actually sound quite good, they may have been the larger format 511E... but we digress.

View attachment 393699

Generally accepted "best practice" is cross 'em at 800 or 1k, yes. Many folks like the 811B better at 1k, too.
Both the 511B and the 811B do better with damping and/or some added mass and being screwed to a substantial baffle.
... but we digress.

 

[MattHooper]

That is a collector's item.

In my tests the 511B when crossed over at 800Hz or higher actually worked quite well. Ultimately I still got rid of mine too.

A friend took a pair of my prototype cabinets, finished them nicely and stuck 511s in them and they actually sound quite good, they may have been the larger format 511E... but we digress.

View attachment 393699

I’ve seen that system before! One of my favourites.

 

[Waxx]

Off course Altec don't own copyrights to a simple reflex, it's the toal package thatis a classic outfit started with Altec. WE and RCA speakers looked different, at least to my knowledge. It's altec that made that layout popular, and many did. But never asthetic that close to the Altec, and certainly not claiming the claims in the marketing talk about an innovative design. It's not, that is what i wanted to point out.

And about which Altec horn it is, i could be wrong. I'm not a specialist. And i prefer the more modern horns for compression drivers, like the modern JBL and Kiplish K402 as example (Kiplish did do some things right also). Easier to optiain are the 18Sound horns that are great.

And that's also a think. Kiplish got a very good horn that they could have used, their own K402. So why clone a Altec type of horn? Theirs is (objective) a lot better. than those old multicell designs. That K402 is used in the modern Jubilee speaker. Their own tweeter (K55) driver is not that good, but many in diy-land who got hold of these horns couple them with modern TAD, BMS, Faital or JBL drivers and consider that as one of the finest horn tweeter configs.

 

[Cbdb2]

Many of you seemed to miss my point.

Calling them art to multiply the cost is ridiculous and must make real artist cringe. Kind of reminds me of the documentary "Exit thru the Gift Shop" .

This is my main, ok, only greivance. I was talking about the look. And it kind of bugs me that younger guys are paying way to much fir these.. I wonder how many of them are not getting in to hifi because they think they can't afford it. That would be to bad.

 

[Cbdb2]

So why clone a Altec type of horn? Theirs is (objective) a lot better. than those old multicell designs.

Because it "looks cool". The main reason the Voice of the Theater speakers had an exposed horn and basic paint job was because they were behind the screen and nobody saw them. The home versions looked like the ones i posted, because most people though they looked better.

 

[mhardy6647]

Because it "looks cool". The main reason the Voice of the Theater speakers had an exposed horn and basic paint job was because they were behind the screen and nobody saw them. The home versions looked like the ones i posted, because most people though they looked better.

That is indeed true. Further, the signature "hyperpresent" midrange -- nowadays referred to by some as "Technicolor midrange" -- of the VOT (much beloved by... umm... some of us) reflects (so to speak) the need of these redoubtable loudspeakers to speak though a movie screen!

I'll take this opportunity to note that, while the Valencia was touted in its day by Altec as a housebroken domesticated version of (the A7 morph of) the Voice of the Theatre, the small (it's all relative!) bass reflex enclosure was far from the front horn loaded, very large vented enclosure alignment of a "real" A7.
The biggest impact of this: decidedly rolled-off LF response. Mind you, I owned a pair of 846A Valencias (the original 16 ohm morph, with 416A woofer and 806A compression treble driver) and loved the sound overall -- but they do leave something to be desired at the low end.

Oh. Ahem. The other thing I wanted to mention -- Altec did indeed make a proper domestic version of the A7: the modestly-monikered Altec Magnificent.
They had the same design asthetic of the aforementioned Valencia, but in a much bigger package.

Random internet photos; not mine, unfortunately. Ironically enough, there was a nice-looking pair a few years back at one of the local junk emporia (?!) -- I was very, very tempted.

Note the small-ish front loaded horn (a la a gen-u-ine A7 or A5) and the use of 511B rather than 811B horns.
I am not sure what drivers were used in the Magnificents. I'd like to hope they employed 515B woofers and perhaps 802D treble drivers.
EDIT: Close! 416A woofers and 802D treble drivers, per https://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/reference/1975-drivers/page03.jpg

 

[MattHooper]

That is indeed true. Further, the signature "hyperpresent" midrange -- nowadays referred to by some as "Technicolor midrange" -- of the VOT (much beloved by... umm... some of us) reflects (so to speak) the need of these redoubtable loudspeakers to speak though a movie screen!

I'll take this opportunity to note that, while the Valencia was touted in its day by Altec as a housebroken domesticated version of (the A7 morph of) the Voice of the Theatre, the small (it's all relative!) bass reflex enclosure was far from the front horn loaded, very large vented enclosure alignment of a "real" A7.
The biggest impact of this: decidedly rolled-off LF response. Mind you, I owned a pair of 846A Valencias (the original 16 ohm morph, with 416A woofer and 806A compression treble driver) and loved the sound overall -- but they do leave something to be desired at the low end.

View attachment 394098

Oh. Ahem. The other thing I wanted to mention -- Altec did indeed make a proper domestic version of the A7: the modestly-monikered Altec Magnificent.
They had the same design asthetic of the aforementioned Valencia, but in a much bigger package.

View attachment 394099

View attachment 394100
Random internet photos; not mine, unfortunately. Ironically enough, there was a nice-looking pair a few years back at one of the local junk emporia (?!) -- I was very, very tempted.

Note the small-ish front loaded horn (a la a gen-u-ine A7 or A5) and the use of 511B rather than 811B horns.
I am not sure what drivers were used in the Magnificents. I'd like to hope they employed 515B woofers and perhaps 802D treble drivers.
EDIT: Close! 416A woofers and 802D treble drivers, per https://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/reference/1975-drivers/page03.jpg

Cool. I’ve always wanted to hear the Altec Valencia. I’m pretty sure I read about them from Art Dudley.

 

[Mr. Widget]

That is indeed true. Further, the signature "hyperpresent" midrange -- nowadays referred to by some as "Technicolor midrange" -- of the VOT (much beloved by... umm... some of us) reflects (so to speak) the need of these redoubtable loudspeakers to speak though a movie screen!

I'll take this opportunity to note that, while the Valencia was touted in its day by Altec as a housebroken domesticated version of (the A7 morph of) the Voice of the Theatre, the small (it's all relative!) bass reflex enclosure was far from the front horn loaded, very large vented enclosure alignment of a "real" A7.
The biggest impact of this: decidedly rolled-off LF response. Mind you, I owned a pair of 846A Valencias (the original 16 ohm morph, with 416A woofer and 806A compression treble driver) and loved the sound overall -- but they do leave something to be desired at the low end.

The Altec sound from the horn loaded A7 and variants and the various reflex versions were all extremely bass shy by design. It is simple physics. When you design the woofer to give you maximum efficiency, you simply will not get much bass out of them. Even lacking in the bottom end, having a pronounced midrange, positively terrible phase response and pretty poor directivity, they are still pretty remarkable when handled with the right care.

Here is Altec's on axis frequency response for the classic A7-500. Note the SPL... these speakers are not afraid of playing loud!

 

[Mr. Widget]

This is my main, ok, only greivance. I was talking about the look. And it kind of bugs me that younger guys are paying way to much fir these.. I wonder how many of them are not getting in to hifi because they think they can't afford it. That would be to bad.

In a world where most younger people have never seen or experienced anything beyond a tiny bluetooth speaker, I think OJAS is offering a glimpse into the possible to a new generation. It is only one path, but if these speakers inspire more young people to explore what is possible then it is a wonderful thing and should be applauded not condemned.

We are not his audience. Many of us on this forum not only are familiar with the history behind these speakers, but have explored these paths ourselves and moved on... or not. But we are not on Instagram exciting a new generation of potential audio geeks showing them what is possible. Devon is introducing people to our hobby to people who are not drawn to the various audio geek forums on line. I think we need more people like Devon.

 

[mhardy6647]

The Altec sound from the horn loaded A7 and variants and the various reflex versions were all extremely bass shy by design. It is simple physics. When you design the woofer to give you maximum efficiency, you simply will not get much bass out of them. Even lacking in the bottom end, having a pronounced midrange, positively terrible phase response and pretty poor directivity, they are still pretty remarkable when handled with the right care.

Here is Altec's on axis frequency response for the classic A7-500. Note the SPL... these speakers are not afraid of playing loud!
View attachment 394104

Yes, true -- I was a bit too elliptical (which I admit plays against type since I am usually distressingly loquacious ) The 515B woofer delivers its best ("flattest") response into the midrange with both front and back loading. The 416A is somewhat more forgiving, I suppose. Neither will go wicked deep, and, indeed, as you say, by design -- whether motion picture soundtrack or idler drive record player, below 40 or 50 Hz (or so) there was only noise of various and unsavory kinds. The Valencia's small (it really is all relative!) vented box, though, is bass shy compared to, e.g., a Klipsch Cornwall. From (this is a SWAG) 70 or 80 Hz on up, though, the Valencia is way more aurally palatable (how's that for a mixed metaphor?) than the Cornie -- at least to me!

All this being said: I am currently using 515Bs in very large vented boxes (designed for and originally loaded with a pair of 604E Duplexes)-- apostate that I am.
I am not unhappy with their LF performance.

Cool. I’ve always wanted to hear the Altec Valencia. I’m pretty sure I read about them from Art Dudley.

Yes, you have -- although he ended up with a pair of the identical inside* but different outside Flamencos.

Listening #169: Altec Flamenco

On a bright, warm day in September, at the memorial gathering for our colleague Wes Phillips, I overheard John Atkinson, in pre-ceremony conversation, discussing men's fashions: "What's popular these days," he said, with a degree of puzzlement that stopped short of disapproval, "is very long...

www.stereophile.com

Art Dudley is one of the hifi scribes that I never got a chance to meet -- but would really liked to have met. His tastes weren't identical to mine, but they overlapped significantly.
________________
* "Identical", in this case, to the later 846B morph of the Valencia, with 8 ohm drivers.

 

[MattHooper]

In a world where most younger people have never seen or experienced anything beyond a tiny bluetooth speaker, I think OJAS is offering a glimpse into the possible to a new generation. It is only one path, but if these speakers inspire more young people to explore what is possible then it is a wonderful thing and should be applauded not condemned.

We are not his audience. Many of us on this forum not only are familiar with the history behind these speakers, but have explored these paths ourselves and moved on... or not. But we are not on Instagram exciting a new generation of potential audio geeks showing them what is possible. Devon is introducing people to our hobby to people who are not drawn to the various audio geek forums on line. I think we need more people like Devon.

I agree.

It’s not that I necessarily feel we have to proselytize for new converts.

But I certainly do enjoy it when somebody discovers great sound that blows the way or opens up their mind. I get to see it a lot from people listening to my system and I’m sure that’s been the experience of many on this forum.

I got drawn into high end audio upon hearing my friends Quad 63s and a Dynaco ST 70 tube amp, in the 90s. I followed that buying my own Quad 63s with a Conrad Johnson tube amp. Is that the type of system that would be recommended to me on ASR? Quite unlikely. But it blew my mind, And I had tons of absolutely fabulous listening experiences. And it led to all sorts of audio adventures, some of which would include ASR approved gear, sometimes not. Do I feel like my audio journey was defiled or corrupted by magazines and exchanging experiences with other audiophiles as a way to try out new gear? Hell no. I’d do it all again. It was a blast, and all of my gear gave me huge amount of satisfaction.

If someone else gets to experience that kind of audio path I’m not going to mourn for them. Good for them.

I’m certainly against the spreading of bullshit, and view places like ASR as massively valuable for getting accurate information out there.

But I prefer to recognize there is more than one path, more than one goal it can be satisfied in the audio hobby. The type of gear Devon cries clearly pleases some people. The fact that he’s not making active speakers or speakers that wouldn’t make the ASR top list doesn’t mean they need to be “ educated out of “ liking more idiosyncratic gear like this.

A world in which audio has been fully commodified isn’t necessary one I’m looking forward to, even if some others are.

 

[Ste_S]

In a world where most younger people have never seen or experienced anything beyond a tiny bluetooth speaker, I think OJAS is offering a glimpse into the possible to a new generation. It is only one path, but if these speakers inspire more young people to explore what is possible then it is a wonderful thing and should be applauded not condemned.

We are not his audience. Many of us on this forum not only are familiar with the history behind these speakers, but have explored these paths ourselves and moved on... or not. But we are not on Instagram exciting a new generation of potential audio geeks showing them what is possible. Devon is introducing people to our hobby to people who are not drawn to the various audio geek forums on line. I think we need more people like Devon.

Saved me having to type it, again. Add in it's getting groups of people to sit down and listen to music in silence, as a shared experience in unusual spaces like galleries and museums. Beats the crap out of your usual hi-fi show, which usually features stuff far more expensive, and with a higher snake oil factor, than OJAS does.

 

[MattHooper]

Probably a bit too mushy for some ASR members. But it’s nicely shot, short, and he seems like a decent guy with passion.

 

[Vuki]

He's a bit of a poseur. With all those MJ magazines nonchalantly stacked in the background...

 

[Snarfie]

He's a bit of a poseur. With all those MJ magazines nonchalantly stacked in the background...

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[Snarfie]

For many years we all know what is important to reproduce a good sound despite an expensive or a cheaper system your Room Acoustics (reverb time, FR etc etc) must be on a certain level. You could put in a 1 million euro system in my room without room treatment and or DSP it will sound shit. The average consumer listening room I guess around 90% is at least compromised an not coming close compared to a professional audio control room where multichannel/instruments an master tapes/files are produced an yes the customer listen direct on their cd vinyl etc to the result from a those control room recordings.
The investment ratio regarding an professional audio control room is around 70/30 that is 70 room treatment 30 gear. We are talking about in most cases close to a million or millions. By far no comparison with an average consumer listening room.


Suppose I go to Ojas or for that matter to any other High end store an I show him after the the realy cool an excelent listening session an his sales pitch my measured room acoustics an ask him you are sure I get the same experience as I have here an now in mine listening room with no treatment what so ever.?

When I saw the Ojas video I got immediately a allergic reaction. The guy is talking about him self an what moves him leaving out the potential customer an most important really critical information (here above).

For that matter I never ever encountered in 50 years a sales person who disclaimed his system in that manner specific leaving out critical information. Esspecialy when you investing a large amount of money it will come with an high expectation.

I would suggest a disclaimer to Ojas an his Colleague's

1 Notice potential customers that they enter a treated or not trearted listening room.

2 If treated inform the customer atleast about the reverb time an FR.

3 For best possible reproduction at home advise actively customer to do a measurement (a simple measurement REW for instance) an offer room treatment and or a DSP
solution

4 Become a ASR member an ask (kidding)

5 Try out the system for free some weeks.

If customer knows it better that's fine at least customer (especially with barley any acoustic knowledge) knows what they can or can’t expect.

 

[MattHooper]

The average consumer listening room I guess around 90% is at least compromised an not coming close compared to a professional audio control room where multichannel/instruments an master tapes/files are produced an yes the customer listen direct on their cd vinyl etc to the result from a those control room recordings.

I think you are exaggerating, the case against regular listening rooms.

You don’t need to go to the length of a professional mixing room in order to have good sound. As I remember, research suggest that an average room, comprising an average complement of furniture and accoutrements, and often does allow enough absorption and reflectivity for good sound.

And of course, if you are into the audio gear, you were going to take steps to dial in the speaker position and listening position.

For many years, my two channel listening room, 13 feet wide by 15 feet deep, had no room treatment. It had a big listening sofa, a couple stuffed chairs, a rug, And not a lot else. And yet with a variety of loudspeakers, I got spectacular sound. That’s not uncommon. Later on I did a renovation of the room so I could use it as a home theatre as well and I hired a professional acoustician as part of that job. I think the room sounds better than ever. But that doesn’t mean I wasn’t getting fantastic sound before the renovation.

I’ve heard tons of different systems and audiophiles homes where they were not using any room treatment and yet we’re getting really impressive sound.

So, again, it seems to me you are overselling this problem, and I don’t think it’s impossible at all that Devon has managed to get sound that his customers are happy with and any number of different rooms.

 

[mhardy6647]

In my purely empirical experience (nigh-on six decades' worth): stuff that sounds good -- sounds good.

 

[MattHooper]

In my purely empirical experience (nigh-on six decades' worth): stuff that sounds good -- sounds good.

Along those lines, in my many decades of experience, it’s been very rare that a good sounding speaker has been “ ruined” by a room. In other words with experimentation good sounding speakers can give a nice presentation and a variety of rooms. And audiophiles typically care about the sound and put in the effort to dialling in good sound with their loudspeakers.

My buddy does audio reviews, and usually most speakers sound good and roughly the same positions in his room. But he did have a pair of speakers that just didn’t sound right and those usual positions that he struggled with a bit (bass shy). It just took finding the right position for them (moved closer towards the room corners) to get them sounding great as he had heard them in other set ups.

 

[Snarfie]

I think you are exaggerating, the case against regular listening rooms.

You don’t need to go to the length of a professional mixing room in order to have good sound. As I remember, research suggest that an average room, comprising an average complement of furniture and accoutrements, and often does allow enough absorption and reflectivity for good sound.

And of course, if you are into the audio gear, you were going to take steps to dial in the speaker position and listening position.

For many years, my two channel listening room, 13 feet wide by 15 feet deep, had no room treatment. It had a big listening sofa, a couple stuffed chairs, a rug, And not a lot else. And yet with a variety of loudspeakers, I got spectacular sound. That’s not uncommon. Later on I did a renovation of the room so I could use it as a home theatre as well and I hired a professional acoustician as part of that job. I think the room sounds better than ever. But that doesn’t mean I wasn’t getting fantastic sound before the renovation.

I’ve heard tons of different systems and audiophiles homes where they were not using any room treatment and yet we’re getting really impressive sound.

So, again, it seems to me you are overselling this problem, and I don’t think it’s impossible at all that Devon has managed to get sound that his customers are happy with and any number of different rooms.

In most cases we are talking not about listening rooms but modern hard surface Living rooms that if you not lucky dominated by the WAF. I moved from a close to excellent acoustically living room to this hard surface living room could not make head of tales from this room acoustically also because of the WAF. So I sold of a quite expensive High end set.

Later I modified the current saddle roof attic 7 x 4 meters partly with room treatment (mostly first reflections) DSP combined I got the liquid sound back. I spent hours in quite some living rooms with serious gear at least 60% sounded really bad. IMO as a audio store selling into high end audio at least you have to inform you customer adequate they don’t do that is my experience an if you ask about room acoustics solutions their knowledge is shocking low. Or worse they avoid the subject. I don’t know could be a Dutch habit lots of these people (in audio buisiness) are self centered an pushing more or less their believes mostly older people looks like they are disconnected from the latest developments never heard of ASR . I got more or less this self centerd feeling also with Ojas agreed quite subjective observation my side. Got the feeling he will not last 10 years in this buisiness.