Nuemann KH120 + KH750 Calibration Question

[Heavymetal]

Hello everyone! First time to the site.

So, I just purchased and installed the Neumann KH120 and KH750 today and calibrated it over the network. Upon finishing the calibration and testing it….I’m not getting that much low end from the KH750. I’m hearing more low mids punch through the KH120’s than low end from the 750.

Even when I adjusted the eq calibration it still didn’t add much low end.

I would think it would have more low end punch in the low end than this. I had way more low end from my Presonus T10 subwoofer than this subwoofer.

I’ll include a picture of my setting on the back of the KH120 and 750. Maybe I have a setting wrong or calibrated it wrong?

I had to turn off the KH120’s just to see if the KH750 is even working lol! Thankfully it is but just not much low end happening.

I appreciate any help as I’m a newbie to these monitors/subwoofer.

Thanks!

 

[unpluggged]

How do you know low end is lacking? Do you use spectrum analyzer to see if there is enough bass in your source material in the first place?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Hello everyone! First time to the site.

So, I just purchased and installed the Neumann KH120 and KH750 today and calibrated it over the network. Upon finishing the calibration and testing it….I’m not getting that much low end from the KH750. I’m hearing more low mids punch through the KH120’s than low end from the 750.

Even when I adjusted the eq calibration it still didn’t add much low end.

I would think it would have more low end punch in the low end than this. I had way more low end from my Presonus T10 subwoofer than this subwoofer.

I’ll include a picture of my setting on the back of the KH120 and 750. Maybe I have a setting wrong or calibrated it wrong?

I had to turn off the KH120’s just to see if the KH750 is even working lol! Thankfully it is but just not much low end happening.

I appreciate any help as I’m a newbie to these monitors/subwoofer.

Thanks!

How did you calibrate - did you use the MA1 or the ipad-app? What did you do?

 

[Heavymetal]

How do you know low end is lacking? Do you use spectrum analyzer to see if there is enough bass in your source material in the first place?

Yeah, I was looking at a spectrum. The spectrum from the Neumann software showed it wasn’t missing much low end weirdly enough. It gives you a chance to increase the low end with 8 eq’s across the spectrum at the end of the measurements. I cranked the low end and it barely increased the low end. I had to turn off my kh120’s to make sure the kh750 was even working.

I’m gonna do a test today without the software just to make sure the subwoofer is working properly and maybe I measured or used the software wrong. I would should be able to get things to rattle if I cranked the subwoofer which is not what I’m going for but wanna make there’s some low end for mixing.

One thing it did say during the measurements that I didn’t do was move the subwoofer either left or right of center. I left it center under my desk in front of me which is where it fits better in my small control room. For some reason the measuring software only gives you two choices…either left or right for subwoofer placement.

 

[Heavymetal]

How did you calibrate - did you use the MA1 or the ipad-app? What did you do?

I used the MA1 software on my iMac. The 2 KH120’s were connected to the KH750 and the KH759 is connected to my Apollo X16 interface and the network cable was connected to my iMac. I followed directions to T except I didn’t move the subwoofer left or right. I left it centered under my desk. As I was telling the other guy I did move the Sprectrum eq at the end but no low end increased. Maybe I’m doing some step wrong besides subwoofer placement?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

It would help if you posted the "after"-measurement shown in the MA1-alignment page.
You could also validate with an additional REW measurement on your listening position.
The question is, is it just your room/positioning or does the system anything wrong.

 

[Heavymetal]

Sounds good and will do. Unfortunately the Neumann software only allows you to see the measurements during and after it measures and then when you “Save it”…it closes it and runs it from the monitoring system apparently.

I’ll re-run the measurement and take a screenshot so you guys can see. I also have Sonarworks that I can run. I haven’t tried REW measurements before but could try that as well if need be.

Appreciate the troubleshooting help.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Sounds good and will do. Unfortunately the Neumann software only allows you to see the measurements during and after it measures and then when you “Save it”…it closes it and runs it from the monitoring system apparently.

I’ll re-run the measurement and take a screenshot so you guys can see. I also have Sonarworks that I can run. I haven’t tried REW measurements before but could try that as well if need be.

Appreciate the troubleshooting help.

You don't need to redo the measurement, you can open and edit the alignment after you saved it.

 

[Heavymetal]

You don't need to redo the measurement, you can open and edit the alignment after you saved it.

Sweet! I’ll fire it up later this morning and post a screenshot. Thanks!

 

[Heavymetal]

You don't need to redo the measurement, you can open and edit the alignment after you saved it.

Attached are the Default System Response and the Aligned System Response. Let me know what you think. Thanks!

 

[Heavymetal]

Attached are the Default System Response and the Aligned System Response. Let me know what you think. Thanks!

Also, what do you think of that big 100 dip. Do you think I should adjust that up more than the measurement added? Maybe that's what I am missing in the low end?

 

[Heavymetal]

Sweet! I’ll fire it up later this morning and post a screenshot. Thanks!

I think I figured it out. I didn't know you had to click on REALIGN after making the EQ adjustments. I added more low end to where I can feel the bass. I'll probably back it off a little more so it is inbetween where it was because I don't need it shaking the whole house lol! I just need enough to where I can feel it for mixing the low end. I have never heard everything so clear before. I just recently installed some Vicoustic panels and some clouds too.

Btw do you know if I can use the iPad app as well to make adjustments now that I have the measurements done?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Btw do you know if I can use the iPad app as well to make adjustments now that I have the measurements done?

No, not possible unfortunately. You must chose either using MA1 or iPad, but they are not compatible for parallel use.

I think you already figured out what the problem was: a flat target curve (you are probably very close and have a very dry room so the software chose this - in most cases i´ve seen the MA1 choses a target with some bass shelf) in combination with a huge null around 100Hz. You already tuned the target curve a bit, but the 100Hz dip is still a problem. The best (and maybe only) way to reduce this dip is to try different positions - of the sub and/or the speakers and/or your listening position.

 

[Heavymetal]

I appreciate the tips and that sucks that the MA1 software isn’t compatible with the iPad. I’ll have to put in a request for a future feature?!

Also, when you say my room is dry….what does that mean exactly? Does it mean I have too much acoustic treatment?

If I move the subwoofer and run the MA1 measurement again do you know if it will overwrite my current measurements saved? I’m wondering because it would be cool to be able to come back to my current measurements if I decide I like it better.

I made some other small tweaks and saved a few different EQ adjustments and I really like what I’m hearing. Nothing sounds overly hyped but really balanced.

Lastly, I don’t know if you know this answer but I mainly mix Hardrock / Metal music and do you think I should be able to just feel the bass or just have enough low end to hear to mix the bass and kick. Hope that makes sense.

Sorry for the long post and I appreciate the advice. Thanks!

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I appreciate the tips and that sucks that the MA1 software isn’t compatible with the iPad. I’ll have to put in a request for a future feature?!

Also, when you say my room is dry….what does that mean exactly? Does it mean I have too much acoustic treatment?

If I move the subwoofer and run the MA1 measurement again do you know if it will overwrite my current measurements saved? I’m wondering because it would be cool to be able to come back to my current measurements if I decide I like it better.

I made some other small tweaks and saved a few different EQ adjustments and I really like what I’m hearing. Nothing sounds overly hyped but really balanced.

Lastly, I don’t know if you know this answer but I mainly mix Hardrock / Metal music and do you think I should be able to just feel the bass or just have enough low end to hear to mix the bass and kick. Hope that makes sense.

Sorry for the long post and I appreciate the advice. Thanks!

You can save any previously made measurement / alignment to a file and reload later (at least in the PC version).

 

[Heavymetal]

You can save any previously made measurement / alignment to a file and reload later (at least in the PC version).

Cool! I’ll try and do that tomorrow.

 

[Hexspa]

I appreciate the tips and that sucks that the MA1 software isn’t compatible with the iPad. I’ll have to put in a request for a future feature?!

Also, when you say my room is dry….what does that mean exactly? Does it mean I have too much acoustic treatment?

If I move the subwoofer and run the MA1 measurement again do you know if it will overwrite my current measurements saved? I’m wondering because it would be cool to be able to come back to my current measurements if I decide I like it better.

I made some other small tweaks and saved a few different EQ adjustments and I really like what I’m hearing. Nothing sounds overly hyped but really balanced.

Lastly, I don’t know if you know this answer but I mainly mix Hardrock / Metal music and do you think I should be able to just feel the bass or just have enough low end to hear to mix the bass and kick. Hope that makes sense.

Sorry for the long post and I appreciate the advice. Thanks!

He was speculating as to why MA1 didn’t opt to give you a shelved up bass response. Unless you’ve made a concerted effort to deaden your room, it’s probably not too dead. His other option was that you are close which also minimizes room influence. Actually, I’d imagine that MA1 would boost less with a very live space but I’m speculating.

Afaik, the subwoofer is less about “feeling” bass and more about simply extending the bandwidth of the system. Particularly for mixing, the subwoofer should just give more richness and resonant sound and even improve your perception of the midrange. A boomy subwoofer, for critical listening, can be an indication of poor integration. It’s possibly a good thing that you can’t tell your subwoofer is on unless you turn it off. Even then, you need source audio that makes use of the 18-40Hz band. I’m not claiming expertise here, just jumping in.

Edit: I think you’re listening for enjoyment. In that case, set the sub to whatever curve that pleases you. Personally, I don’t like exaggerated bass but to each their own.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

He was speculating as to why MA1 didn’t opt to give you a shelved up bass response. Unless you’ve made a concerted effort to deaden your room, it’s probably not too dead. His other option was that you are close which also minimizes room influence.

Yes, AFAIK the target curve is calculated based on the distance and maybe reverberation of the room. I speculated the closer the distance and the dryer the room, the more likely for the software to use a flat target instead of a bass elevated. But i don't know, maybe it's the other way round for reverberation.
I always get a target with around +3dB below 100 Hz, i am 1.6 meters away.

I think the big 100Hz dip can be a problem for mixing metal, because this region is important for punch/kick. You could end up pushing this region too hard in your mixes so they may sound boomy in other setups. But i am no expert on this.

 

[Hexspa]

Yes, AFAIK the target curve is calculated based on the distance and maybe reverberation of the room. I speculated the closer the distance and the dryer the room, the more likely for the software to use a flat target instead of a bass elevated. But i don't know, maybe it's the other way round for reverberation.
I always get a target with around +3dB below 100 Hz, i am 1.6 meters away.

I think the big 100Hz dip can be a problem for mixing metal, because this region is important for punch/kick. You could end up pushing this region too hard in your mixes so they may sound boomy in other setups. But i am no expert on this.

Yeah, 100Hz dip is probably SBIR. One or more boundaries within 1m of the speakers reinforcing that 1/4 wavelength cancellation. OP needs to move speakers lower than crossover point (1.1m for below 85Hz) and/or ensure the ceiling or floor or front or side walls aren’t equidistant from both speakers i.e. stagger them while maintaining symmetry from ears-forward.

An interesting experiment would be to use MA1 to calibrate from nearer or longer listening distances to see what it cooks up in the bass shelf. 1.6m is borderline midfield innit?

 

[Heavymetal]

He was speculating as to why MA1 didn’t opt to give you a shelved up bass response. Unless you’ve made a concerted effort to deaden your room, it’s probably not too dead. His other option was that you are close which also minimizes room influence. Actually, I’d imagine that MA1 would boost less with a very live space but I’m speculating.

Afaik, the subwoofer is less about “feeling” bass and more about simply extending the bandwidth of the system. Particularly for mixing, the subwoofer should just give more richness and resonant sound and even improve your perception of the midrange. A boomy subwoofer, for critical listening, can be an indication of poor integration. It’s possibly a good thing that you can’t tell your subwoofer is on unless you turn it off. Even then, you need source audio that makes use of the 18-40Hz band. I’m not claiming expertise here, just jumping in.

Edit: I think you’re listening for enjoyment. In that case, set the sub to whatever curve that pleases you. Personally, I don’t like exaggerated bass but to each their own.

That totally makes sense and thanks for the tips. I am coming from a Presonus T10 subwoofer and Presonus R65's. I am hearing a massive different. I was definitely hearing some boom with the Presonus T10 where as now I hear a smooth low end and not tiresome to the ears like before.