Now That Atmos Is Everywhere… Real vs. Phantom Center in a 5.1 Music-Focused Setup

[Newman]

[to Soundmixer] Subpar home theater setups are the rule, not the exception, and most people simply don’t have the resources or expertise to build anything close to professional quality. Ignoring that reality may make sense from a profitability standpoint, but from the consumer’s perspective it feels less like pragmatism and more like misdirection.

I’m not talking about the professionals mixing for "spherical home theaters in a vacuum" - they work with the tools they’re given. I mean the consumer-facing side, where manufacturers and streaming platforms exude boundless optimism - better! bigger! more immersive! - while selling promises that most living rooms can never deliver on. And then, to add insult to injury, the blame gets shifted back onto consumers when the illusion inevitably falls flat because their homes aren’t up to professional cinema standards.

I apologize if I misrepresent the spirit of what you’ve said, but that’s how it comes across to me.

You just outlined an equivalent to the argument for using Auratone 5C speakers to mix and master stereo music.

I apologize if I misrepresent the spirit of what you’ve said, but that’s how it comes across to me. A bit like an anti-Atmos diatribe lashing out in every direction. After all, how many home stereo users are getting enough bass, attending to room modes and bass smoothness, positioning the speakers symmetrically and equidistantly from side walls, even sitting in the middle!? Are you going to give the whole stereo format a hard fail and criticise the sound engineers for not taking this into account when mixing?

Isn't the core topic of this thread whether a real centre is any better than a phantom centre? And to that point, I think @Soundmixer is saying that the first number in an Atmos format is an odd number for a reason.

cheers

 

[tengiz]

Are you going to give the whole stereo format a hard fail and criticise the sound engineers for not taking this into account when mixing?

Well, isn’t that basically what you were saying before? That stereo is fundamentally broken, unfixable, and engineers don’t even bother trying — unless you turn 2 channels into 3. But then what? How do we make phantom sources between the center and the left? Add yet another speaker? And then another? Where does it stop?

 

[goat76]

It is not just "a" channel; it is the center channel. If there are no back surrounds, that output IS routed to the side surrounds. Objects are not speaker-dependent. They move through whatever main speakers you have, as long as they are set up correctly to Dolby's standards. However, when speakers are left out, there is a penalty in the accuracy of the movement of the objects.

My surround system is only 5.1, so no Atmos channels. I still think it sounds great with many Atmos mixes, but I have noticed that some mixes have a somewhat strange balance where I think there is too much sound coming from the surround channels. This has got me thinking that sound objects that were initially meant for the additional surround channels which in a 7.1 system are supposed to be positioned right to the sides of the listening position (according to Dolby’s own layout ) are now routed exclusively to just the two surround speakers in my 5.1 system.

As you seem to be experienced with mixing in Atmos, I have the following question for you:
If a sound object were meant to be panned to the left side surround bed channels in a 7.1.x Atmos system, but the system is only 5.1.x, will that sound object be routed only to the left surround speakers, or will the left front speaker and the left surround speaker create a phantom sound between them, and place the sound object somewhere between them?

 

[slaweks]

Atmos is turning up everywhere now – streaming, Blu-ray, even stereo playback - which got me wondering: in a music-focused 5.1 system, is a real center worth it, or is a phantom center just as good?

My setup started in the SACD/DVD-A days and I have a physical center that’s supposedly voice-matched to my mains (not really). I almost always prefer phantom for music - it blends better, keeps the stage seamless, and avoids tonal mismatch. A narrow sweet spot is fine for me, and I’m not chasing cinema SPL, so the "real center for headroom" argument doesn’t apply.

Atmos content can move audio anywhere, yet surrounds rarely match mains perfectly in real rooms. Dolby’s guidelines of course recommend tonal matching since the renderer doesn’t fix timbre differences, but Atmos still has to work on mismatched systems. So how much does matching really matter?

Has anyone compared? I haven’t heard Atmos music with truly flashy spatial effects yet. By “flashy” I mean something like the intro to Led Boots by Hiromi’s SonicBloom - plain stereo, yet spectacular, and for me it only works on speakers, not headphones.

Flashy spatial effects on Atmos, front wides are also used. - try, e.g. Numbers or Model.

 

[slaweks]

Most of the Atmos mixes I’ve listened to don’t use the center channel for much more than a few elements like the kick and the snare drum, which in most cases are also panned to the front left and right channels as well.

The vocal track is usually panned as a phantom sound, just like it's done for ordinary stereo mixes. I would say that is true for about 90% of all Atmos mixes I have heard.

In majority of pieces of Atmos-encoded music I heard, the center is used.

 

[goat76]

In majority of pieces of Atmos-encoded music I heard, the center is used.

Do you use Tidal, Apple Music, or do you buy the Atmos music from somewhere?



I went through the first 25 songs in the playlists "New Arrivals: Dolby Atmos" at Tidal, and based on those tracks, the center speaker isn't doing much. In 9 out of the 25 tracks, there's no sound at all coming from the center speaker.

Molly Tuttle - Everything Burns: No sound coming from the center speaker.
Conan Gray - Caramel: Just some quiet, atmospheric sound in the center speaker.
Sam Smith - To Be Free: Just some quiet, atmospheric sound in the center speaker.
The Favors, FINNEAS, Ashe - Times Square Jesus: No sound coming from the center speaker.
Offset - Professional: A quiet summation of the sound of the left and right front channels is heard in the center speaker.
NCT WISH - Surf: A quiet main vocal is heard in the center channel, but most of the main vocals are coming from the left and right front speakers.
Carlos Vives, Grupo Niche - La Tierra del Olvido: Some drum elements are coming from the center speaker, and a little bit of the reverb from the piano.
Joe Leane - Invited: Only the talk at the beginning of the song is panned to the center channel, and the bass guitar is about equally mixed to the center, left. and the right channel.
Reneé Rapp - Why Is She Still Here?: No sound coming from the center speaker.
TyriqueOrDie - Sex In The Mosh: No sound coming from the center speaker.
Jerri Di - White Wine: Main vocal is panned to all three front speakers.
Maluma - BRONCEADOR: Main vocal is panned to all three front speakers.
Lola Young - d£aler: No sound coming from the center speaker.
Burn a Boy, Shaboozey - Change Your Mind: A quiet summation of the sound of the left and right front channels is heard in the center speaker.
Royel Otis - say something: Only sporadic effects in the center channel.
Tommy Richman - MIAMI: No sound coming from the center speaker.
Confidence Man, Jade - gossip: No sound coming from the center speaker.
Luke Roberts, Kurt Vile - classic love: No sound coming from the center speaker.
GIVĒON - I CAN TELL: Main vocal is panned to all three front speakers.
Charley Crockett - All Around Cowboy: Only the bass guitar is heard in the center speaker.
Sawaeetie, J White Did It - Boffum: A quiet summation of the sound of the left and right front channels is heard in the center speaker.
Danny Gokey, Sarai Rivera - Te Tengo A Ti: No sound coming from the center speaker.
JT - Ran Out: Quiet sound of the bass beat and vocals is heard in the center channel.
Lords - Shapeshifter: Only sporadic effects in the center channel.
Kae Tempest - Sunshine On Catford: Just a bit of atmospheric sound in the center speaker.

 

[NTK]

I went through the first 25 songs in the playlists "New Arrivals: Dolby Atmos" at Tidal, and based on those tracks, the center speaker isn't doing much. In 9 out of the 25 tracks, there's no sound at all coming from the center speaker.

We have this thread on @Sean Olive's gripe on the mixing practices for Atmos music. Newman's posted what Dr Olive's posted on Facebook in post #6.

'Dr Olive is not happy with how Dolby Atmos is mixed'

May 21, 2023

So much for the claim I heard from mixers that Dolby Atmos Music translates what the artist intended no matter the setup or space. It might be true for 1 person if they sit in the right seat, but everyone else will hear something the artist did not intend

https://twitter.com/x/status/1660358497278754816

• sarumbear
• Replies: 103
• Forum: General Audio Discussions

• 

 

[tengiz]

It might be true for 1 person if they sit in the right seat, but everyone else will hear something the artist did not intend

Déjà vu - I mean ‘let them eat cake’ - all over gain. Beware, though, history’s sweet courses have a way of ending with sharp cutlery.

 

[PhantomCentaur]

Hello, first (non-scientific, anecdotal) post.

My hearing is imbalanced/my right ear hears 2ish dB worse than my left ear.

A real center channel always sounds like it's ever so slightly to the left of where i is, which I find really annoying. Because of that, when I'm in the MLP by myself (95% of the time), I prefer going with a phantom center and manually dialing in the L/R trims. The center image is properly "centered", though it's never quite as strong as I'd like. Still, based on just my little experiments, it seems like the best I'm able to do.

I do often wish I could just have a rock solid real center that comes at me properly "centered", though.

 

[Newman]

Hello, first (non-scientific, anecdotal) post.

My hearing is imbalanced/my right ear hears 2ish dB worse than my left ear.

A real center channel always sounds like it's ever so slightly to the left of where i is, which I find really annoying. Because of that, when I'm in the MLP by myself (95% of the time), I prefer going with a phantom center and manually dialing in the L/R trims. The center image is properly "centered", though it's never quite as strong as I'd like. Still, based on just my little experiments, it seems like the best I'm able to do.

I do often wish I could just have a rock solid real center that comes at me properly "centered", though.

Move your centre speaker to the right until it sounds centred.

cheers

 

[PhantomCentaur]

Move your centre speaker to the right until it sounds centred.

cheers

It's probably worth experimenting with that. That idea has always upset my symmetry sensibilities though.

 

[mosco]

With the latest version of Acoustics 8.2, you have both options: remove it or match the center with LR in its advanced settings.

 

[tengiz]

Yes, this is just too perfect of a punchline for this branch of the discussion:

Dolby Atmos demo at HQ: either the setup’s subpar or the demo material is. But don’t worry - it’s the end user’s fault for not parking his behind in the sweet spot. Nothing to see here.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1660358497278754816

 

[Newman]

It's probably worth experimenting with that. That idea has always upset my symmetry sensibilities though.

Get a matching centre channel speaker and put it symmetrically on the left....unconnected.

That will upset your waste sensibilities though.

 

[Soundmixer]

Subpar home theater setups are the rule, not the exception, and most people simply don’t have the resources or expertise to build anything close to professional quality. Ignoring that reality may make sense from a profitability standpoint, but from the consumer’s perspective it feels less like pragmatism and more like misdirection.

Your angle here is a bit twisted. Are you suggesting we create subpar mixes to accommodate the lowest common denominator? What about the people who have a good system? Where do they fit in with your lowest common denominator angle? Do people who mix music do this? Nope, so why do soundtrack mixers have to do that in your eyes?

I’m not talking about the professionals mixing for "spherical home theaters in a vacuum" - they work with the tools they’re given. I mean the consumer-facing side, where manufacturers and streaming platforms exude boundless optimism - better! bigger! more immersive! - while selling promises that most living rooms can never deliver on. And then, to add insult to injury, the blame gets shifted back onto consumers when the illusion inevitably falls flat because their homes aren’t up to professional cinema standards.

The consumer decides how they want their system configured and how they want it to sound. That is not the job of the sound mixer. The job of a sound mixer is to create a great mix PERIOD. You don't do that by taking into consideration what the end user is going to do with it. If the end user likes a phantom center better, then I, as the mixer, am not going to eliminate the center to account for that loss. That would be nuts. If the end user decides they don't want back-wall speakers, I am not going to eliminate the back speaker to accommodate that decision. You don't seem to understand or are confused about what a sound mixer is supposed to do.

I apologize if I misrepresent the spirit of what you’ve said, but that’s how it comes across to me.

I know you are not a sound mixer, so, understandably, you are confused about what we do. If the golden standard for mixing an immersive track is a 7.1.4 system, a mixer is going to use that speaker configuration. If the end user chooses to install a 5.1.4 system, the renderer remaps the objects to fit that system so it is in their proper spatial place in space. If the person does not have ceiling speakers, the AVR or processor will revert to the core of the track. This is the best way for a single soundtrack to work with different speaker setups.

 

[Soundmixer]

My surround system is only 5.1, so no Atmos channels. I still think it sounds great with many Atmos mixes, but I have noticed that some mixes have a somewhat strange balance where I think there is too much sound coming from the surround channels. This has got me thinking that sound objects that were initially meant for the additional surround channels which in a 7.1 system are supposed to be positioned right to the sides of the listening position (according to Dolby’s own layout ) are now routed exclusively to just the two surround speakers in my 5.1 system.

If you don't have Atmos, then your receiver is playing the core 7.1 track, sans the objects. There is no change in the balance of the mix without the objects - they are just enhancements to the core track.

As you seem to be experienced with mixing in Atmos, I have the following question for you:
If a sound object were meant to be panned to the left side surround bed channels in a 7.1.x Atmos system, but the system is only 5.1.x, will that sound object be routed only to the left surround speakers, or will the left front speaker and the left surround speaker create a phantom sound between them, and place the sound object somewhere between them?

Honestly, I cannot tell you how that will play out - I don't have a 5.1.4 system, and I don't master or mix with that configuration. I can imagine it will likely appear as a phantom image to the side, but I am not certain of that.

 

[Soundmixer]

We have this thread on @Sean Olive's gripe on the mixing practices for Atmos music. Newman's posted what Dr Olive's posted on Facebook in post #6.

'Dr Olive is not happy with how Dolby Atmos is mixed'

May 21, 2023

So much for the claim I heard from mixers that Dolby Atmos Music translates what the artist intended no matter the setup or space. It might be true for 1 person if they sit in the right seat, but everyone else will hear something the artist did not intend

https://twitter.com/x/status/1660358497278754816

• sarumbear
• Replies: 103
• Forum: General Audio Discussions

• 

Sean often complains about Atmos music mixes on his Facebook page. Unfortunately, two-channel guys still haven't learned how to use the center channel. Their ears are tuned to a phantom image, and they don't seem to want to move forward to using a center speaker.

 

[tengiz]

You don't seem to understand or are confused about what a sound mixer is supposed to do.

I know you are not a sound mixer, so, understandably, you are confused about what we do.

That’s correct. I might be curious about the details - although don't overestimate my enthusiasm, but what actually matters is the end product: how it sounds in my room, on the equipment I was sold as "certified", installed exactly within the limits the manufacturer and platform themselves endorsed. If, somewhere along that chain, the purity of your mix collapses for reasons outside your control - yet still within the domain owned and managed by the platform - how on earth is that supposed to be the customer’s fault?

Your angle here is a bit twisted. Are you suggesting we create subpar mixes to accommodate the lowest common denominator? What about the people who have a good system? Where do they fit in with your lowest common denominator angle? Do people who mix music do this? Nope, so why do soundtrack mixers have to do that in your eyes?

No, what I’m saying is that this whole scheme seems so delicate it collapses under the very tolerances it claims to support. The "certified" receivers will quite happily accept the absence of a center channel, or without a hesitation play back a 7.2.4 material while set up as a 4.0 system. That’s an example of a subpar setup that is still within the limits the manufacturers and the platform themselves stamped their approval on.

To me, that only points to one thing: whether for profit, expediency, or sheer neglect, the overall robustness of this niche and hence end-to-end experience quite often is simply not good for the average consumer. Not because you aren’t doing the best mixing job you can, but because the entire platform is built so fragile that the end result can’t be trusted.

I respect you for owning up to your part, but you don’t need to defend the rest of the chain as if it’s flawless. Everyone knows it isn’t.

 

[slaweks]

Do you use Tidal, Apple Music, or do you buy the Atmos music from somewhere?



I went through the first 25 songs in the playlists "New Arrivals: Dolby Atmos" at Tidal, and based on those tracks, the center speaker isn't doing much. In 9 out of the 25 tracks, there's no sound at all coming from the center speaker.

Molly Tuttle - Everything Burns: No sound coming from the center speaker.
Conan Gray - Caramel: Just some quiet, atmospheric sound in the center speaker.
Sam Smith - To Be Free: Just some quiet, atmospheric sound in the center speaker.
The Favors, FINNEAS, Ashe - Times Square Jesus: No sound coming from the center speaker.
Offset - Professional: A quiet summation of the sound of the left and right front channels is heard in the center speaker.
NCT WISH - Surf: A quiet main vocal is heard in the center channel, but most of the main vocals are coming from the left and right front speakers.
Carlos Vives, Grupo Niche - La Tierra del Olvido: Some drum elements are coming from the center speaker, and a little bit of the reverb from the piano.
Joe Leane - Invited: Only the talk at the beginning of the song is panned to the center channel, and the bass guitar is about equally mixed to the center, left. and the right channel.
Reneé Rapp - Why Is She Still Here?: No sound coming from the center speaker.
TyriqueOrDie - Sex In The Mosh: No sound coming from the center speaker.
Jerri Di - White Wine: Main vocal is panned to all three front speakers.
Maluma - BRONCEADOR: Main vocal is panned to all three front speakers.
Lola Young - d£aler: No sound coming from the center speaker.
Burn a Boy, Shaboozey - Change Your Mind: A quiet summation of the sound of the left and right front channels is heard in the center speaker.
Royel Otis - say something: Only sporadic effects in the center channel.
Tommy Richman - MIAMI: No sound coming from the center speaker.
Confidence Man, Jade - gossip: No sound coming from the center speaker.
Luke Roberts, Kurt Vile - classic love: No sound coming from the center speaker.
GIVĒON - I CAN TELL: Main vocal is panned to all three front speakers.
Charley Crockett - All Around Cowboy: Only the bass guitar is heard in the center speaker.
Sawaeetie, J White Did It - Boffum: A quiet summation of the sound of the left and right front channels is heard in the center speaker.
Danny Gokey, Sarai Rivera - Te Tengo A Ti: No sound coming from the center speaker.
JT - Ran Out: Quiet sound of the bass beat and vocals is heard in the center channel.
Lords - Shapeshifter: Only sporadic effects in the center channel.
Kae Tempest - Sunshine On Catford: Just a bit of atmospheric sound in the center speaker.

Long list! This is what I found so far on Apple music, with my shorter description:

Hertfordshire Chorus, David Temple & London Orchestra da Camera - Karl Jenkins: The Armed Man (Ensemble Version) - used, especially by soloist
Karl Jenking - Savitur - just background
Mike Oldfield - Tubular Bells (50th Anniversary) - just background, but wides are used
Kraftwerk - 3-D: The Catalogue (Live) - center and wides used, flamboyant
Ludovico Einaudi - Taranta Project - just background, wides used more
Other Einaudi pieces, except movie soundtracks - center not really used
The Hu, Rumble of Thunder (Deluxe Edition) - center not used, but wides are
The Hu, The Gereg (Deluxe Edition) - center used, but not wides
Sabaton - The War to End All Wars - center not used
Sabaton - The Last Stand - used
Sabaton - Primo Victoria - used
Sabaton - Coat of Arms - used
Sabaton - The Art of War - used
Secret Garden - Secret Garden - used
Avi Avital, Between Worlds & Alessia Tondo - ITALY - EP - used, very nice

London Philharmonic Orchestra, Itzhak Perlman & Rodney Friend - Vivaldi: The Four Seasons -used
John Eliot Gardiner & English Baroque Soloists - Handel: Water Music - used
The Choir of King's College, Cambridge, Sir Philip Ledger, Academy of St Martin in the Fields, - Charpentier: Te Deum, H. 146 & Magnificat, H. 74 - weekly used, background
Nicola Benedetti - Baroque - used for the soloist
Menuhin Festival Orchestra - Handel: Sarabande - used but in most pieces weakly
Sir Simon Rattle & Vienna Philharmonic - Beethoven: Complete Symphonies - used, but mostly background
Marko Letonja & Orchestre philharmonique de Strasbourg - The 3D Orchestral Collection - used
Europa Galante & Fabio Biondi - Boccherini - String Quintets - center not used, wides used
Schwedischer Rundfunkchor, Berlin Philharmonic & Claudio Abbado - Mozart: Requiem - center used for background and soloists, wides used
Peter Breiner & New Zealand Symphony Orchestra - Mussorgsky: Pictures At an Exhibition, Songs & Dances of Death, The Nursery - center used

But a lot of pieces by Sabaton are extremely sibilant. The stereo version is much better. Is it because of the compression by Apple? Reportedly it is typically 440kb/s with max being 768kb/s.

 

[slaweks]

Your angle here is a bit twisted. Are you suggesting we create subpar mixes to accommodate the lowest common denominator? What about the people who have a good system? Where do they fit in with your lowest common denominator angle? Do people who mix music do this? Nope, so why do soundtrack mixers have to do that in your eyes?


The consumer decides how they want their system configured and how they want it to sound. That is not the job of the sound mixer. The job of a sound mixer is to create a great mix PERIOD. You don't do that by taking into consideration what the end user is going to do with it. If the end user likes a phantom center better, then I, as the mixer, am not going to eliminate the center to account for that loss. That would be nuts. If the end user decides they don't want back-wall speakers, I am not going to eliminate the back speaker to accommodate that decision. You don't seem to understand or are confused about what a sound mixer is supposed to do.


I know you are not a sound mixer, so, understandably, you are confused about what we do. If the golden standard for mixing an immersive track is a 7.1.4 system, a mixer is going to use that speaker configuration. If the end user chooses to install a 5.1.4 system, the renderer remaps the objects to fit that system so it is in their proper spatial place in space. If the person does not have ceiling speakers, the AVR or processor will revert to the core of the track. This is the best way for a single soundtrack to work with different speaker setups.

And if the user has also front wides? I see them used in some, but minority of, recordings.