Now That Atmos Is Everywhere… Real vs. Phantom Center in a 5.1 Music-Focused Setup

[Newman]

Would they?

Why wouldn't they?

My system fully supports uncompressed files but I can't receive them from Apply that way?

I don't see that as relevant, if your system supports more than what Apple does. We are discussing the case where your system supports less.

If the streamer is using DD+ compression today but switches to AC-4 tomorrow but my system can't decode it, where will that leave me?

I expect it would only 'switch' if your system can handle it.

Same way that it only 'switches' from stereo to Atmos if your system can handle it.

cheers

 

[Newman]

...Anyway, Tidal Atmos is in AC-4, (for loudspeakers not just headphones as krabapple mentioned) ....

...Did you hear that someplace else, otherwise I think you mis-read thist;
"When the Immersive Machines team added support for MP4 export in Immersive Master Pro, we integrated both DD+JOC and AC-4. During testing, it occurred to us that very few people had actually heard AC-4 on loudspeakers. TIDAL and Amazon Music have long delivered Dolby Atmos music using AC-4 IMS, which is specifically for binaural headphone and virtualized stereo speaker playback. But the newer version of AC-4 that supports both headphones and multichannel loudspeakers hadn’t been heard outside the lab."

Maybe I assumed. I didn't really follow the paragraph you quoted above in the original article: it seemed to be talking about somebody's proprietary software, not about Dolby itself or AC-4 itself.

What I did know, from a quick look at the Tidal website, is that the Atmos that they provide does play on loudspeakers. Now, maybe, that Atmos is not AC-4, and it is still DD+JOC. I don't know, although it does make me wonder why on earth they wouldn't allow AC-4 on loudspeakers given that Dolby clearly designed it to work on speakers.

(And if indeed Tidal are automatically using AC-4 for headphone users and DD+JOC for speaker users, it would be a good example of how the streaming apps could stream both types of Atmos compression as needed, and not 'break' older system customers when they go to AC-4. It becomes an addition, not a replacement.)

cheers

 

[Sal1950]

Why wouldn't they?

I don't know partner, I was asking you. This isn't my area of expertise.

(And if indeed Tidal are automatically using AC-4 for headphone users and DD+JOC for speaker users, it would be a good example of how the streaming apps could stream both types of Atmos compression as needed, and not 'break' older system customers when they go to AC-4. It becomes an addition, not a replacement.)

Sure but that would just mean more data usage from streaming 2 different compression codecs at the same time. So then why not just drop all the compression and stream lossless which everyone already supports? From my chair, as long as this compression still exists for Atmos streaming, we'll have the haters like Jim Austin of Stereophile attacking it from his little disturbed bully pulpit.

Stereophile's Jim Austin Says Streaming Atmos Sucks

Stereophile Editor-in-Chief Jim Austin has a new As We See It column, entitled Dolby Atmos: A Bleak Shadow? Here, Austin is continuing his one-man crusade against Atmos as it's currently streamed by Apple Music. (To be clear, Austin is criticizing "lossy" Atmos as streamed. Not lossless Atmos...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I really don't know or understand what his agenda is, but it's not a good one for anyone interested in TOTL immersive music.
It's all a freakin mess really.

 

[Matt S]

I don't know partner, I was asking you. This isn't my area of expertise.


Sure but that would just mean more data usage from streaming 2 different compression codecs at the same time. So then why not just drop all the compression and stream lossless which everyone already supports? From my chair, as long as this compression still exists for Atmos streaming, we'll have the haters like Jim Austin of Stereophile attacking it from his little disturbed bully pulpit.

Stereophile's Jim Austin Says Streaming Atmos Sucks

Stereophile Editor-in-Chief Jim Austin has a new As We See It column, entitled Dolby Atmos: A Bleak Shadow? Here, Austin is continuing his one-man crusade against Atmos as it's currently streamed by Apple Music. (To be clear, Austin is criticizing "lossy" Atmos as streamed. Not lossless Atmos...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I really don't know or understand what his agenda is, but it's not a good one for anyone interested in TOTL immersive music.
It's all a freakin mess really.

Your response to him is excellent. Well done!!

 

[EJ3]

By the way, are you Sal1950's lackey? You sure act like that.

Not Sal1950's lackey: but we have similar ideas.
Also: traditionally, (at least in the USA (just look at how the court system works and certainly where I am from (born in Austria, by the way) when someone refutes what someone says, then it is up to the person doing the refuting to prove the person wrong. Otherwise, the refuter just has hearsay and it's a moot point.
I know that Sal1950 is right on those folks that he mentioned, as to the rest, I don't know. And am not particularly interested, as I run 2.2 or 4,2 channels.
So I don't have a dog in this fight.
So it absolutely doesn't matter to me, except for possible future reference, IF I ever have a place where I decide that I can expand my system.
I was just pointing out that the standards of debate are that the side disagreeing, is the side that needs to prove their point. (it did not take the grinning face emoji for some reason).

 

[goat76]

Most Atmos mixing engineers use compression when they are mixing 2-channel audio.

 

[EJ3]

Most Atmos mixing engineers use compression when they are mixing 2-channel audio.

Unfortunately, they do.
That doesn't make it right, though.
I'm guessing (but it applies to me and some people that I know) many of us 2 channel folks don't buy newer 2 channel audio because of that.

 

[Matt S]

Unfortunately, they do.
That doesn't make it right, though.
I'm guessing (but it applies to me and some people that I know) many of us 2 channel folks don't buy newer 2 channel audio because of that.

Still a lot of new music which does sound good though. I mean, when I say plenty, perhaps 1 or 2 in every 10 recommendations on Apple Music might stand out as having good dynamics and punch.

 

[EJ3]

Still a lot of new music which does sound good though. I mean, when I say plenty, perhaps 1 or 2 in every 10 recommendations on Apple Music might stand out as having good dynamics and punch.

Since I only do physical media (unless I am listening to FM [which I still do a fair amount of]), that 1-2 (which may or may not be a genre which I would buy) heavily restricts what the amount of my purchases were in the past.
But, I have albums and CD's that I have collected since the early 1970's. And I'm almost set to start digitizing them.
I'm sure that I will have plenty to do with music these next couple of years.

 

[Matt S]

Since I only do physical media (unless I am listening to FM [which I still do a fair amount of]), that 1-2 (which may or may not be a genre which I would buy) heavily restricts what the amount of my purchases were in the past.
But, I have albums and CD's that I have collected since the early 1970's. And I'm almost set to start digitizing them.
I'm sure that I will have plenty to do with music these next couple of years.

I too digitised what I had, still collect bluray audio releases from time to time. I just do not want to miss new stuff- and there is so much good music still being made.

But you have that covered with radio - and there is something very relaxing about listening to the radio sometimes.

 

[Newman]

Also: traditionally, (at least in the USA (just look at how the court system works and certainly where I am from (born in Austria, by the way) when someone refutes what someone says, then it is up to the person doing the refuting to prove the person wrong. Otherwise, the refuter just has hearsay and it's a moot point.

Isn't it the person who makes the claim who has to produce the evidence that the claim is true?

eg if the court prosecutor claims that I committed a crime, and I refute it, I don't have to prove him wrong. He has to prove his claim is true.

And in the world of science, as Carl Sagan famously put it, the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the proof required...of the claimant. This is the basic principle of scientific scepticism.

That's why one can't get away with making a claim that is really difficult to disprove, eg there is a teapot in the asteroid belt, and then put the onus on everyone else to disprove you. It doesn't work like that. The claim is extraordinary, so the claimant had better provide extremely impressive evidence that it is true.

It is only when the claim is very ordinary, eg that there is oxygen in the atmosphere, that someone wishing to refute it would be expected to back up the refutation.

cheers

 

[Matt S]

Centre vs phantom is lost in here somewhere.....

 

[goat76]

Centre vs phantom is lost in here somewhere.....

Yes, but that was already answered way earlier in this thread.

When analyzing the latest Atmos tracks provided by Tidal, there aren’t that many mixes that uses the center speaker for much, and it’s not uncommon that nothing is panned to the center channel at all. It’s quite obvious that most Atmos mixing engineers still prefer the sound using the left and right front channels for the main content like vocals and other thing usually panned to the center stage, just like the phantom sound for “regular” 2-channel content.

 

[Matt S]

Yes, but that was already answered way earlier in this thread.

When analyzing the latest Atmos tracks provided by Tidal, there aren’t that many mixes that uses the center speaker for much, and it’s not uncommon that nothing is panned to the center channel at all. It’s quite obvious that most Atmos mixing engineers still prefer the sound using the left and right front channels for the main content like vocals and other thing usually panned to the center stage, just like the phantom sound for “regular” 2-channel content.

Was aware - just being silly - topic had changed ... thanks for summary though

 

[Mort]

When analyzing the latest Atmos tracks provided by Tidal, there aren’t that many mixes that uses the center speaker for much, and it’s not uncommon that nothing is panned to the center channel at all.

This is my experience. Some here strongly disagree.

 

[EJ3]

I too digitised what I had, still collect bluray audio releases from time to time. I just do not want to miss new stuff- and there is so much good music still being made.

But you have that covered with radio - and there is something very relaxing about listening to the radio sometimes.

For me, I can pick up from 80+ (sometimes 100+) miles. The chimney top antenna works well. This allows me to get non-large corporate stations, true local happenings and events, and music that is not driven by large corporations. Oddly, there is only one (low powered Jazz station at 88 miles), given that there is a fair amount of Jazz interest in the Charleston, SC area (and one really good Jazz club).

 

[EJ3]

Isn't it the person who makes the claim who has to produce the evidence that the claim is true?

No. At that point It can be believed, taken at face value or ignored.
But, if you want to refute it, it is up to you to prove them different.

eg if the court prosecutor claims that I committed a crime, and I refute it, I don't have to prove him wrong. He has to prove his claim is true.

They said you did it. You say you didn't do it. And THEN it is up to them to refute what you said: they then have to prove you did.

And then there are the folks that say the world is flat (I know one and he ran radio stations, so you never know). It doesn't matter what proof you provide, they still deny it.

 

[Sal1950]

Your response to him is excellent. Well done!!

Thanks, too bad so few can read opposite viewpoints at Sterephile any more. They closed all their public forums so no one can debate the company line any more and took down all prior info. The only place you can read what the membership thinks is in the magazines "letters to the editor" where only "isn't Stereophile wonderful" gets published.

 

[Sal1950]

Most Atmos mixing engineers use compression when they are mixing 2-channel audio.

Mainly in the pop, rap, and hiphop genres. Since that's what those artists want and expect their music to sound like, who's to argue?
Thankfully jazz, classical and progressive rock remain lightly touched

The chimney top antenna works well.

I'd like to put up a outdoor antenna for FM and OTA TV reception, I have a brand new one still in the box somewhere.
But with my area of Central Fl being designated "lightning capital of the US" I've been scared to death.
Summer lightning can get truly frightening.

 

[Sal1950]

Centre vs phantom is lost in here somewhere.....

Yes a little, sorry.
With Atmos I find that a lot of vocals and that which before would be panned "hard center" has now been floated to a point further up vertically.
So now we have that info being shared between the center (real or phantom) and the front height speakers.
Works well either way but probably still best to use a real center for multich systems having a discreet center channel. JMHO