Now That Atmos Is Everywhere… Real vs. Phantom Center in a 5.1 Music-Focused Setup

[NTK]

It's unbelieveable! And shocking.

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The mixer of course can do whatever he or she wants. Just that not everything makes sense and/or give good results. So you can't place the sound at the direction you want using no more than 2 channels?

 

[Newman]

Guess what guys? Bad mixing and mastering has plagued the recorded music space in every format and every era. Being amazed and shocked to see examples....is naive.

Fortunately, good and great mixing and mastering has blessed us at the same time.

So what?

 

[Sal1950]

Guess what guys? Bad mixing and mastering has plagued the recorded music space in every format and every era. Being amazed and shocked to see examples....is naive.

Fortunately, good and great mixing and mastering has blessed us at the same time.

For sure, the general state of LP pressings back in the 70s and going forward was mostly horrid. We would spend tons of money buying 2, 3, 4 copies trying to get one with a halfway quiet surface and no other flaws, then searching out imports and later MFSL to find anything just a little bit better..
Today, specially from the guys who specialize in multich mixing like Steven Wilson, Alan Parsons, many more are giving us masters that are made in heaven. Thank God for the music releases of the last decade.

 

[ace_xp2]

They are rationalizing their setups.

In a way, I suppose that's true. Though, I've already bought the parts to build my 5.1 to ~40hz in the surrounds. Just have to put together the sonotube cabinets for my rear "subs". What this has done is make me question the usefulness of building those cabinets to hit those lower frequencies.

Ultimately, I'm now starting to think that anything found playing out of those added "subs" would be artefacts.

That's why it reminds me of people chasing after the high notes in 24/96khz high def audio I mentioned earlier in this thread. A lot of time was spent looking through frequencies higher then 20khz in recordings as a way to justify what they were paying for. What they found was ultimately artefactual as well, even when signals were present there was no reason for them, no intent.

The only dog I've got in this fight is curiosity though. Frankly, Soundmixer could show up and state that there are actually many studios that do mix down to single digits with rotary vane woofers in every corner. That would provide a new target to go after if nothing else.

 

[Soundmixer]

It's not about "striving", it's called "compromising". The ideal speaker setup would be full range speakers in a complete hemisphere around you. Maybe some in the floor too for good measure. Anything short of that is compromising.

Five full-range speakers in a circle around you is not ideal. Each one of those speakers would be strongly interacting with the room boundaries very differently, and each would therefore have a different frequency response. The ideal setup would be compact speakers capable of high SPL crossed over to multiple subs at 80Hz. This would result in superb imaging and an even bass frequency response throughout the room.

 

[kyuu]

Five full-range speakers in a circle around you is not ideal. Each one of those speakers would be strongly interacting with the room boundaries very differently, and each would therefore have a different frequency response. The ideal setup would be compact speakers capable of high SPL crossed over to multiple subs at 80Hz. This would result in superb imaging and an even bass frequency response throughout the room.

Five? I meant enough speakers to completely fill the hemisphere around you. Obviously this would require careful mixing to avoid interference between all the speakers, but I believe this is something that has actually been done, more or less.

 

[Soundmixer]

Five? I meant enough speakers to completely fill the hemisphere around you. Obviously this would require careful mixing to avoid interference between all the speakers, but I believe this is something that has actually been done, more or less.

You still don't need a bunch of towers around you to accomplish this. A bunch of bookshelf speakers would be just as good, and you wouldn't have to work so hard to get them properly integrated with the subwoofers.

 

[Soundmixer]

I don't know where this believe, that bass in mono was something to strive for, comes from. Or that professional setups would work with bass in mono.
Movement in the bass is fun and is sounding great!

All bass in movie soundtracks is mono. While there are interaural time difference down to 20Hz, the ability to hear it becomes weak below 80Hz. There is also interaural level difference, but they are also weak at low frequencies as a result of the long wavelengths of bass frequencies. Recording stereo bass is a waste of time because of these reasons.

 

[Newman]

....and "movement in the bass" is still easily achieved using frequencies 80 Hz and up!

 

[Sal1950]

Five full-range speakers in a circle around you is not ideal. Each one of those speakers would be strongly interacting with the room boundaries very differently, and each would therefore have a different frequency response. The ideal setup would be compact speakers capable of high SPL crossed over to multiple subs at 80Hz. This would result in superb imaging and an even bass frequency response throughout the room.

How do you handle this horrid bass problem in a stereo only system ?

 

[Soundmixer]

How do you handle this horrid bass problem in a stereo only system

Much the same way as you would handle a multichannel system. Place the subs where they perform the best, and place the stereo speakers where they perform the best.

 

[Soundmixer]

....and "movement in the bass" is still easily achieved using frequencies 80 Hz and up!

This is leaning more towards mid bass, not actual bass frequencies.

 

[Newman]

This is leaning more towards mid bass, not actual bass frequencies.

Sure, but because bass instruments tend to have lots of harmonics, which go to the mains, it's easy to make them 'walk about'.

 

[Sal1950]

Much the same way as you would handle a multichannel system. Place the subs where they perform the best, and place the stereo speakers where they perform the best.

Sounds just like I have with my 5 full range

 

[Soundmixer]

Sure, but because bass instruments tend to have lots of harmonics, which go to the mains, it's easy to make them 'walk about'.

Those harmonics are in the midrange, so it is the midrange that "walks about", not the bass.

 

[Soundmixer]

Sounds just like I have with my 5 full range

The research done on 5 full-range speakers in a room does not support this, but it is good to dream.

 

[Newman]

Those harmonics are in the midrange, so it is the midrange that "walks about", not the bass.

Psycho-acoustically? I think a fundamental and its harmonics can be heard as an integrated sound.

Remember, with the usual 80 Hz, it's only sub-bass that isn't in the mains. Lots of bass is in the mains and can 'walk about'.

 

[Soundmixer]

Remember, with the usual 80 Hz, it's only sub-bass that isn't in the mains. Lots of bass is in the mains and can 'walk about'.

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At 80Hz, your ability to perceive direction is pretty weak, hence why it is chosen as a crossover point from main speakers to sub(s). It is a waste of time to "walk bass about" for that reason. It is also an acoustical nightmare to have bass "walking" all over the room.

 

[Sal1950]

At 80Hz, your ability to perceive direction is pretty weak, hence why it is chosen as a crossover point from main speakers to sub(s). It is a waste of time to "walk bass about" for that reason. It is also an acoustical nightmare to have bass "walking" all over the room.

Your argument on any possible negative room interactions in the surround bass range is the same that exists for any 2 ch system only somewhat exaggerated.
OTOH the the gains made from the matching tonalities of all speakers more than makes up for it.
Having matching LF & LR is just as important as matching LF & RF .

 

[sfogg]

At 80Hz, your ability to perceive direction is pretty weak, hence why it is chosen as a crossover point from main speakers to sub(s). It is a waste of time to "walk bass about" for that reason. It is also an acoustical nightmare to have bass "walking" all over the room.

It isn't about directionality. It is about having the bass being externalized ( not be 'in your head' like headphones) and for a sense of spaciousness and envelopment.

Low Frequence Envelopment
Speaker placement, externalization, and envelopment in home listening rooms
Multichannel sound systems and their interaction with the room
Loudspeaker and listener positions for optimal low-frequency spatial reproduction in listening rooms.
Envelopment and Small Room Acoustics