Not trying to be arrogant here, but who listens to this?

[Geert]

Play that on the airport or hotel piano and they'll ask you to stop, and not in the friendly way

 

[Sokel]

I do!(and absolutely love it)
Music is a preference,people listen to this for example (I use them to test)
(don't get scared,your gear is fine,that's the actual composition)

 

[Geert]

no, this music was not written to be deliberately ugly. In fact, a notion of ugly is actually an acquired thing. I myself do not and did not find Messiaen's music ugly, ever. What it actually was, was a desire to enable creativity ito find new modes of beauty:

When listening to this music do you really feel the type of emotion that goes with witnessing beauty, or is it more an appreciation of creativity and innovation? (Not trolling but trying to understand. The only emotion I feel when watching this is confusion over what I'm looking at).

 

[Leporello]

It's actually the Erato recording conducted by Boulez. Not sure why I thought it was Nonesuch. Too many hard seltzers.....

Berio - New Swingle Singers, Orchestre National De France, Pierre Boulez - Sinfonia - Eindrücke

View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 1986 CD release of "Sinfonia - Eindrücke" on Discogs.

www.discogs.com

That's the one. Terrific recording.

 

[Vuki]

When listening to this music do you really feel the type of emotion that goes with witnessing beauty, or is it more an appreciation of creativity and innovation? (Not trolling but trying to understand. The only emotion I feel when watching this is confusion over what I'm looking at).

I really feel emotion that goes with wtnessing beauty.

 

[raif71]

I listen mainly mozart/beethoven and other composers of the romantic era. Towards 20th century I can only stomach Shostakovich.... brilliant music from him imho.

 

[Music707]

As an example of a contemporary composer whose music sounds more 'traditional' I like to mention Valentin Silvestrov. In one Hélène Grimaud recital I found his pieces (from 'Bagatelles') to blend very nicely with those of Debussy, Chopin, Satie etc.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Contemporary music has long been my favorite subject. In Germany, the genre is also called "Neue Musik". The special compositional quality, however, only opened up to me when I was older. Before that, I had to go a long way as a recipient of pop, jazz and classical music.

 

[ahofer]

I appreciate the links from @Twelvetone above. Just a caveat before I veer off into areas the OP has no interest in: My theory knowledge is based on a year of classic tonal theory (cantus firmus, choral arrangement, etc.) and quite a bit of jazz ear training and theory at Berklee. I never studied modern concert music or post-Schoenberg theory, as some were quick to point out.

I understand that polytonal means multiple key centers simultaneously. You used the term “tension notes” which I associate with Jazz theory, where indeed placing (for instance) a D major triad over a Cmaj7 creates some pleasing tension notes (9,#11,13). That sound is not at all dissonant or “atonal-sounding” to listeners of the last century, because of the piled up thirds, and those tensions are a staple of Ravel, Debussy, etc. But if you go around imposing half step-different triads on each other, and/or proceed in a linear fashion in different keys, you can run into some pretty dissonant sounds, full of the rougher intervals. Particularly if there is no resolution, to listeners like the OP (and, frankly, to me), there is not a ton of difference between that and serialism/atonality at the ear. My understanding, as stated above, is that Ives* was polytonal but emphasized clashing key centers. At some point, this becomes so dissonant that it approaches atonality (maybe not in the theoretical sense, I wouldn’t know) - the two key centers are unrecognizable as such and we are left with dissonant note clusters.

So at this convergence, listeners like the OP give up and say “this dissonant 20th century music sounds like a piano falling down stairs”, grouping them together. Perhaps a theory mistake, but not a listener mistake.

and btw, the Mozart Dissonant is a novelty piece famous for a short dissonant introduction, but if you want a wild chromatic two minutes of romantic music, the last movement of Chopin Sonata #2 takes the cake:

That’s quite a sweat Trifonov has worked up.

* I recently heard (live) Ives’ ”Three Places in New England”, which strikes me as a decent example.

 

[Multicore]

How about this jazz classic?

I have that LP. A classic. I wouldn't call it jazz but that's another matter

 

[ahofer]

But being unaware of such work is literally unsophisticated

This is a very domain-specific definition of ”unsophisticated”, as the subject may be quite deeply aware in other domains. ”Unsophisticated” carries unpleasant negative connotations in a conversation like this. For instance, people who wander into this forum thinking subjective reviews are reliable and dispositive aren’t necessarily “unsophisticated” IMO, they maybe just haven’t engaged with the research of our odd hobby.

I think modern music can raise questions of whether it is simply too abrasive to the vast majority of casual listeners and finding something pleasing has too a high search cost. Thus, the initiates who condescend to the great unwashed masses can seem rather comical. I’m always trying to find something new that I like and I’m willing to suffer the search costs, but I can sympathize with those who see a modern work on a concert program and think they will skip out at intermission for something more comforting.

 

[ahofer]

The analogous conversation on the Jazz side has to should, IMO, start with Ornette.

 

[Vuki]

Another nice book:

 

[Liya]

I wouldn't really call Messiaen a 'contemporary' classical composer as he died over 30 years ago ...

I would call it Western Art Music, or rather European Art Music.

 

[JanesJr1]

Topic for attention

One of the main reasons I got into Roon was music discovery. Both genres I listen to already, but also new genres/artists. I fell over this music (on the radio but still) one day, and I’m presumable just not smart or sophisticated enough to understand the music. It sounds like some random guy sitting down just hammering aimless away on the piano

Are any of you listening to this kind of music (what (sub)genre is it?), and what exactly are you enjoying in the music? I’m serious and don’t want to put anyone down, I’m just very curious, as I don’t understand it and want to learn how and why other people listen to this kind of music.

Thanks!

Direct link to YouTube video

Here's a brief summary that may help: https://promusicianhub.com/what-is-atonal-music/

I'm not a musician and am a student like you, except maybe further out on the curve with atonal music. I like it more, the older I get; yet I admire but don't much enjoy the Messaien piece you provided. Still, there's a lot of virtue in the middle ground. Let me provide an example, in order to make a larger point.

I first took an interest decades back when I was first collecting LP's and CD's to become familiar with the basic classical repertoire. I hit Sibelius's Symphony #4, which has strong atonal elements, and was transfixed. I still think it as beautiful as anything in classical music, especially the first movement.

Try it with a good audio system*; the tonality and lush, dark beauty still grab me. It was a dark time for Sibelius, and he seems to leave behind him the awareness of an audience or any reason to meet an audience's need for resolution and harmony. He tries repeatedly to return to tonality, but falls back. It was pure self-expression, the creative process in real-time. To me, the music seems primal, and honest, a look over the shoulder of a flesh-and-blood musician at work, in conflict, and not just a performer. (Sibelius said much the same thing about it in different words decades later.) (It is also kind of known for evoking mental imagery of stark, arctic vistas.)

Probably I'm reading into it to some degree. But my point is that atonality can encourage a connection to the music and not just discourage same. It can make the story more interesting. It's a come-hither to think harder and listen more carefully. It can make some older, more tonal works seem a little "just-so", i.e. contrived a bit too much in order to meet an audience's need for harmony and closure.

*There's a good version with Karajan and the Berlin Phil. DG Sibelius Symphonies 4-7 plus the Swan of Tuonela.

 

[Liya]

why people listen to this kind of music.

I like to think about it, or compare listening to 'this kind of music', to reading different texts. Scientific paper is different than russian novel or romance. Not all reading is for pleasure. Not all music is for pleasure. Some it's done to expand vocabulary, knowledge, to transcend the known.

 

[ahofer]

Just got served this. Can’t say I care for it, but it ain’t atonal.

 

[Killingbeans]

I fell over this music (on the radio but still) one day, and I’m presumable just not smart or sophisticated enough to understand the music.

I think this is a perfect example of music that doesn't necessitate understanding.

Not a genre I normally spend time on, but I had a listen, and I like it. I enjoy the way it affects my emotions. Don't care about any message or intention it might have.

Reminds me of an Asger Jorn exhibition I once went to. The place was absolutely packed with pretentious old farts rambling on about how they "understood" this and that in the paintings. Constantly trying to "one up" each other. It made me so nauseous that I had to leave the place.

I listen to a lot of music that probably tries to convey some sort of statement through symbolism. But I couldn't care less. I just enjoy the sound.

Not saying that I don't enjoy finding profound subtext in a piece of music, but it definitely comes second to me.

 

[computer-audiophile]

But my point is that atonality can encourage a connection to the music and not just discourage same. It can make the story more interesting. It's a come-hither to think harder and listen more carefully. It can make some older, more tonal works seem a little "just-so", i.e. contrived a bit too much for an audience's need for harmony and closure.

I also see it something like that.

BTW: One of my favorites in this genre is the composer Xenakis. For example with his percussion piece Rebonds b ...

 

[ahofer]

Reminds me of an Asger Jorn exhibition I once went to. The place was absolutely packed with pretentious old farts rambling on about how they "understood" this and that in the paintings. Constantly trying to "one up" each other. It made me so nauseous that I had to leave the place.

For every person who is an appreciative student of the genre, there are a dozen chin-pullers pretending to admire something out of social pressure (and sometimes the emperor has no clothes - ahem high end audio - and it's 1 or zero:100). That's just the absurd condition of humanity.