Not trying to be arrogant here, but who listens to this?

[Axo1989]

If we get to vote, I’d say we end this thread!

I can see why you'd say that but honestly think the thread was fine before a minor outbreak of trolling, it'll be fine after that as well. Or there can be another one. It's not a major drama. I've also upvoted the OP for posterity.

 

[Multicore]

“Karlheinz Stockhausen: What went wrong from Gesang der Jünglinge to Helicopter Quartet and was it all his fault?”

I remember a summer’s evening in 1995, standing in a park in Amsterdam waiting for and watching a helicopter take off with a violin player aboard to play her part in the Helikopter Streichquartett. That was exciting at least, and fun.

I'm sure it was. I spoke to Irvine Arditti about it and he said it was fun. I told him I was worried about the photo of Rohan de Saram in the CD insert because he looked frightened and Irvine assured me he loved it. But I still think that shutting down airspace so that a string quartet can saw away in a set of four helicopters while we listen on loudspeakers because Karlheinz had a dream of it is deranged.

And so is performing his 7-night opera cycle Licht at Teatro alla Scala. How did the radical modernism of, say, 1945 to 1960 end up besting the overweening romantic pomposity of mad king Ludwig and Wagner at Bayreuth? I find it hard to disagree with Cardew that Stockhausen serves imperialism.

 

[Sal1950]

Why,does everything else apart from the music has?

Nope, just curious on how it might be related here

No,only what to NOT like,or what he likes is BS.
Which is exactly the same or even worst.

Again that's not the truth.
Statements have simply been made on opinions of like or dislike.

 

[Axo1989]

I'm sure it was. I spoke to Irvine Arditti about it and he said it was fun. I told him I was worried about the photo of Rohan de Saram in the CD insert because he looked frightened and Irvine assured me he loved it. But I still think that shutting down airspace so that a string quartet can saw away in a set of four helicopters while we listen on loudspeakers because Karlheinz had a dream of it is deranged.

And so is performing his 7-night opera cycle Licht at Teatro alla Scala. How did the radical modernism of, say, 1945 to 1960 end up besting the overweening romantic pomposity of mad king Ludwig and Wagner at Bayreuth? I find it hard to disagree with Cardew that Stockhausen serves imperialism.

I'm not sure whether to like or dislike this post (the latter not an actual option) but maybe both. Or the exclamation mark emoji.

More seriously, not sure what I think about Stockhausen's later works. I need to acquaint/re-acquaint myself. I'm not offended/dismayed by the helicopter performance though. In fact I enjoyed it. But I'll have to think/re-think why. Remember my dad's sound teacher I mentioned upthread (who studied with Stockhausen)? Unfortunately he returned to Australia before that so I have no stories. More unfortunately he died quite young, so we can't ask him what he thinks now. That would've been great.

 

[Sokel]

Nope, just curious on how it might be related here

Again that's not the truth.
Statements have simply been made on opinions of like or dislike.

(one of the greatest sopranos of out time can always fit in a music thread)

Sal,we both know that statements of what we like or not can be expressed in a lot of ways.
Some of these ways are straight "I like it and it's enough",some are implying other stuff,far for music or at least music like that.
Let's not pretend otherwise,we're all adults here.

 

[Sal1950]

(one of the greatest sopranos of out time can always fit in a music thread

OK, I just had no idea who she was,
Now I understand how it relates.

Sal,we both know that statements of what we like or not can be expressed in a lot of ways.
Some of these ways are straight "I like it and it's enough",some are implying other stuff,far for music or at least music like that.
Let's not pretend otherwise,we're all adults here.

Your shadow boxing.
I never told anyone what to like
I never intended for anyone begin to like or dislike anything, going by something I said.
I just put up my thoughts and feelings about things, do with it what you will.
But please quit putting words in my mouth or accusing me of some hidden agenda.
It's a strawman tactic.

 

[Sokel]

Your shadow boxing.
I never told anyone what to like
I never intended for anyone begin to like or dislike anything, going by something I said.
I just put up my thoughts and feelings about things, do with it what you will.
But please quit putting words in my mouth or accusing me of some hidden agenda.
It's a strawman tactic.

I was not talking about you specifically,you're wrong taking all on you.
I talked about how sad is a music thread turn to that mess.There a lot to learn from something even if don't like it.

You know,it's funny we never analyze stuff that we like,letting them pass by without a thought and we spend tremendous amount of time with the ones we don't like.
I got happy when I learned to give time to both,there's no such thing as waste in this life unless is evil.
And it would be a boring life without music,any music.

(If only I could express myself properly in English,pff...)

 

[Multicore]

More seriously, not sure what I think about Stockhausen's later works. I need to acquaint/re-acquaint myself. I'm not offended/dismayed by the helicopter performance though. In fact I enjoyed it. But I'll have to think/re-think why.

There are a lot of dimensions to something like this. For me, I listened to the CD and I think it's boring. I played it on the radio, probably no more than once. And I have a social/political critique of institutions that give someone like Stockhausen too much power and of hero worship of composers like him that I think sometimes goes too far. But that's just me.

For the Arditti Quartet (whom I admire more than I admire the composer) it was good to finally get a quartet from the man himself and if that's what it takes then that's what it takes. By all accounts, they liked doing it. And they got paid. So that's all good.

For audiences that got a kick out of being there, what's there to argue with? I'd be a little curious to talk to them about it. Perhaps the grand scale is appealing. Or the weirdness. Or the absurdity. Idk. Let's find out!

My friend and former band-mate Ken Ueno is a very accomplished composer and he rates the quartet very highly. A work of genius. He's looking at the score, which I haven't seen. I accept that Stockhausen was without doubt a masterful designer of schemas and scores so I have no doubt that Ken is on the money. But, as I already mentioned above, I think Stockhausen's weakness was insistence on novelty and rigor of the schema over the audience's experience of the music by and not connecting the two by practical trial and error.

Remember my dad's sound teacher I mentioned upthread (who studied with Stockhausen)?

Yes!

Unfortunately he returned to Australia before that so I have no stories. More unfortunately he died quite young, so we can't ask him what he thinks now. That would've been great.

:'< Didn't expet the story to go there next.

 

[Multicore]

You know,it's funny we never analyze stuff that we like,letting them pass by without a thought and we spend tremendous amount of time with the ones we don't like.

Speak for yourself! I am fascinated by this question. For example, I like Ornette Coleman and Albert Ayler but not so much Coltrane. Why is that? I'm sure there is at least as much to learn from the likes as the dislikes. What is it about Marc Ribot and Steve Hillage that I love when Alan Holdsworth is a turn off? These are improvisors of course. But in the composition world I love Birtwistle, Ligeti, Xenakis and Berio. Idk but I want to. Knowing this seems important to me.

 

[RonSanderson]

I can see why you'd say that but honestly think the thread was fine before a minor outbreak of trolling, it'll be fine after that as well. Or there can be another one. It's not a major drama. I've also upvoted the OP for posterity.

In truth, I have enjoyed the musical selections that I have had a chance to listen to. I think the thread is very thought-provoking and educational.
I have always had an interest in the more experimental genres mentioned here, and I regret not keeping some of the recordings I had in the early 70’s.

My dislike of some genres is more emotional than rational. I don’t like rap / hip-hop because it sounds too angry. I don‘t want those feelings.
I don’t like country for similar reasons - too many themes around people who have messed up their lives and relationships. Again, the feelings generated by listening to this genre are not feelings I want to have.

I guess I don’t really like ballet or opera, where the music has been matched to a prescribed meaning. I prefer to enjoy it on its own grounds without a canned interpretation. As long as nobody tells me the plot, the music is great!

I look forward to more examples that will broaden my horizons!

 

[Multicore]

My dislike of some genres is more emotional than rational. I don’t like rap / hip-hop because it sounds too angry. I don‘t want those feelings.
I don’t like country for similar reasons - too many themes around people who have messed up their lives and relationships. Again, the feelings generated by listening to this genre are not feelings I want to have.

That makes sense.

I sometimes wonder if soundtracks in really good movies can provide the motive to bridge these gaps. I mentioned Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai already because it's a wonderful movie that integrates a lot of great hip hop in a very cool way. For country the best idea I have off the top of my head is Five Easy Pieces staring Jack Nicholson as a pianist, who plays an easy Chopin piece in the clip below. Elsewhere Tammy Wynette's biggest hits accompany dramas that looks like the songs sound and you describe. I rather doubt it will be any use to you but maybe Ghost Dog will.

 

[Hatto]

People who won't mistake the likes of you as "art critics"?

Merely being able to distinguish a rock from a horse doesn't require one to be a zoologist.

 

[Shorty]

[…]But I still think that shutting down airspace so that a string quartet can saw away in a set of four helicopters while we listen on loudspeakers because Karlheinz had a dream of it is deranged.

And so is performing his 7-night opera cycle Licht at Teatro alla Scala. How did the radical modernism of, say, 1945 to 1960 end up besting the overweening romantic pomposity of mad king Ludwig and Wagner at Bayreuth? I find it hard to disagree with Cardew that Stockhausen serves imperialism.

A rather late reaction to Surrealism and Dada, one would think. Of course, the only thing is: nobody ever sat in a concert hall staring Marcel Duchamp’s Fountain for an hour.

 

[computer-audiophile]

His "theory", his gift for prophetic theatrics and esotericism, his megalomania and political skills got him to the summit of European institutional art music. As with Heidegger, it will be a long time before we can recover from the damage. The generation of inadequately critical devotees to him and the avantgarde (modernist, idk what to call it) music he represents need to die out before we have a chance to move on. But I see positive signs that this will come.

I must admit that I was annoyed by the exaggerated criticism of Stockhausen. As someone who has written above about wonderful experiences with "music in the belly", I feel directly affected. I also can't imagine that all his followers have to die before the development of contemporary classic can continue. (LOL)

I also perceived cultural-political objections and objections against institutions that do not affect me as a recipient of music at all. I have contradicted this before.

Wolfgang Rihm, for example, whom I know well and appreciate, is still much closer to romanticism and yet very progressive as a composer. Did he let Stockhausen stop him?

What does he himself think about it? Here is an excerpt from 'Deutschlandfunk Kultur':

Wolfgang Rihm is one of the most respected composers of our time. He began writing his own pieces at the age of eleven. Parallel to his school years, he studied composition at the Staatliche Hochschule für Musik in Karlsruhe and passed his exams at the same time as his Abitur exams in 1972.
He had a special relationship with his later teacher Karlheinz Stockhausen. He had once written him the following on a sheet of paper:
"'Dear Wolfgang Rihm, please follow your own voice completely. Yours, Karl-Heinz Stockhausen.' - And I hung that on my wall with a thumbtack, and it hung above my desk for decades. And I had it hanging there for a long time, until it threatened to turn yellow, because it was, as always with Stockhausen, still written in green felt-tip pen at that time."

In general, I appreciate it when contemporary composition is enriched by visual performance elements in a concert. This was also the case with "Étude d'après Séraphin," which I saw in Karlsruhe. I took the CD with me right after the concert.

It is only a very weak picture if you play it at home as a YouTube video on your own system, but better than nothing. (It is not the best version, the CD from the ZKM is better) In the performance with all instruments it is bombastic.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Unfortunately, Wolfgang Rihm has been very ill for a while now. Shortly before I learned of this, I had a nice meeting with him in Dresden. At his side on my photo of this situation the composer Helmut Lachenmann, who also has been a student of Stockhausen.

 

[computer-audiophile]

A rather late reaction to Surrealism and Dada, one would think. Of course, the only thing is: nobody ever sat in a concert hall staring Marcel Duchamp’s Fountain for an hour.

@Shorty

Shorty, nice old story, I like that kind of thing. It really makes me go into raptures. I'm not a professional musician or artist myself, but I like to do my own exercises as an amateur (in the French sense of that word).

So I had a sea ship around 1977, not a very small one, and there were often artists on board. We did 'Hafenbeschallungen' for example.
I don't know how that translates well. We sailed through the harbor, our berth was in Kiel, for example, in the middle of the city. There was a big drum kit set up on deck, and the sounds would throw echoes back from the houses on the outskirts where people were. The drummer and friend was Frank Köllges, who was well known for his performances. Unfortunately, he passed away years ago.

 

[Multicore]

Wolfgang Rihm is a very accomplished composer that I respect.

Wolfgang Rihm, for example, whom I know well and appreciate, is still much closer to romanticism and yet very progressive as a composer. Did he let Stockhausen stop him?

...

He had a special relationship with his later teacher Karlheinz Stockhausen. He had once written him the following on a sheet of paper:
"'Dear Wolfgang Rihm, please follow your own voice completely. Yours, Karl-Heinz Stockhausen.' - And I hung that on my wall with a thumbtack, and it hung above my desk for decades. And I had it hanging there for a long time, until it threatened to turn yellow, because it was, as always with Stockhausen, still written in green felt-tip pen at that time."

That's a great story and both teacher and pupil gain points in my book from my learning it.

It reminds me of the story Xenakis told of how, after he failed to understand Messiaen's harmony classes and decided he had to go back to basics to learn music theory, Messiaen encouraged him to try using the theories he already knows as an engineer and build music from that...

People surely enjoy lives (professionally or as enthusiasts) that take place in the traditions and institutions of European high art. I don't begrudge anyone that, not even Stockhausen. It seems lovely to me. I have a political critique of the traditions and institutions themselves, the power they confer, and the social hierarchy they tend to reflect. I don't propose a revolution to smash them. I would rather I urge them to get out more, measure and reflect on their service to their communities, and think about what they could do better. Clearly sometimes they do this and sometimes they succeed.

My style of critique is polemical and I try to express my feelings in it sincerely. If this offends then I am sorry about that. Causing offense is not my motive or goal. But I do in fact resent how the arc of the careers of Boulez and Stockhausen consumed so much mind share and resources. I argue that it shows that their radical modernism in the early post ww2 period was more about generational succession than about aesthetics. I dislike a system that seems to provide incentive for artists to strive and compete for such exaggerated rewards.

Please don't take it personally. I don't intend to. I make polemical statements quite often. How about "Romanticism from Bayreuth to Pink Floyd Laser Shows." But I really do strive to avoid personal attacks and I assume that we can agree that we don't all need to like the same things in the same ways.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Wolfgang Rihm is a very accomplished composer that I respect.

What about Lachenmann?

Perhaps I may briefly address the chain of associations that has arisen here in the thread. The OP's question was about Messiaen and who listens to such compositions. Stockhausen was a student of Messiaen, as Xenakis was. Rihm and Lachenman in turn students of Stockhausen. But now that's just one line of development across the generations. There are other connections in all directions.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I also agree that Stockhausen completely freaked out at the end of his time. Most recently when he called 9/11 the greatest work of art. I have no understanding whatsoever for this verbal aberration.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Sounds like you are proud of this accomplishment and maybe it's cool, idk. These two posts of yours demonstrate how hard it is to answer general questions about what's on topic. Maybe take a chance and show us that web site. Then we can decide ...

@Multicore

Now that we are on friendly terms again, I am also willing to answer the question about my wife's gallery website. The URL was under my wife's real name. When we no longer needed it, we sold it to an entrepreneur with the same name. Towards the end of my professional life, I reduced the portfolio of my own web addresses besides the web addresses from customers I had hosted. Since I didn't want web crawlers to crawl these pages, I always programmed a robots.txt to exclude them. This even worked in the past. I don't think it does anymore. That's why there's nothing interesting in the archives. I still have a blog, but it hasn't been publicly accessible for a few years, only to a handful of friends.