Non-stereo room setup questions

[Boggart]

Hello everyone,
after lurking here and elsewhere for quite a while, i.e. months, I’m realizing that I should actually ask the questions I’m looking to answer, to a community which seems to have plenty of answers (even contradicting ones ). It’s about the audio setup in a living room I “just” moved in.

First, and probably biggest constraint from an audiophile PoV: The room and my preferences:

• Little damping (wood floor, no carpet, few shelfs, little furniture with soft surfaces)
• 35m² (380ft²), 3.25m (10.5ft) ceiling, the entrance is also a full height opening, not a door
• No stereo triangle – there’s no TV and I’m not going to arrange the place around one ideal listening position. I rather have people facing each other than any device (and if I really want to delve into music, I’ll put headphones on anyway)
• For the same reason, the speakers won’t be more than 1ft away from a wall
• No wires except power cables

Then there are my personal preferences

• Overall, I’d like to spend no more than 2000€
• Genre: Something everywhere. Jazz, Classic, Metal, Podcasts (yes, not very demanding, but in many setups I find natural voices being poorly rendered), I’d appreciate to be able to cleanly play dubstep-like bass as well, but that’s of lesser priority.
• Listening preference: Details! I hate to miss the how-the-bass-is-plugged or a soft cymbal touch if I know it’s there.
• Source: Digital (on- and offline), but I surely want to be able to connect an analogue source via cinch. HDMI preferred. No phono.
• I’d absolutely appreciate a hands-on interface over using my phone, a tablet or any such device. But again, lesser priority.
• Volume: Moderate, i.e. compatible with neighbours.
• Autonomy: The setup must work without internet. Preferably also without any external WLAN.

My ideas:
Given the room constraints – I presume, speakers should have little directivity error and room correction would valuable. I’m also thinking of omnidirectional speakers, but the wall proximity (and their price) defies that.
Specifically, coaxial driver speakers like the KEF LS50 in conjunction with room correction seem like a good option.
Also a Wiim-setup with BeoLab3 may be even more attractive – not sure whether it allows for room correction, but I’ve heard only good things about the BL3 regarding the way they project and sound.
In both cases, a sub might be needed, but then again, it may be difficult to tame with the little damping in the room.
A DALI Sound Hub setup looks attractive, but I’m not sure they have the speakers for my room (in the price range).
Sonos, while very convenient, leaves me with doubt regarding the fidelity of the speaker.
For both, Sonos and Wiim, I have doubt’s they’ll work without WLAN.

What are your thoughts? I won’t promise to follow suggestions immediately, but I’d appreciate it very much!

 

[staticV3]

Hi @Boggart! Welcome aboard.

So you want to play casual background music and podcasts, but at high quality to multiple people with no predetermined listening position.

Personally I'd downmix the music to Mono, then play it back from a single speaker with good coverage of the likely listening positions.

Multiple speakers facing different directions in an untreated room, I think will just blur detail.

For the single speaker, options are freestanding omnidirectional, in/on-ceiling, or in/on-wall. It really depends on the room layout and construction.

Then to extend the bass response, since there is no MLP, you'd ideally want to place multiple subwoofers evenly distributed in the room, with Multi Sub Optimizer or Dirac Live Bass Control as the backbone for smooth response across a wide area of listening positions.

On the digital side, a miniDSP Flex HT + PocketADC would give you HDMI and Cinch input (in addition to USB, Bluetooth, and SPDIF), guaranteed Offline operation, and Multi Sub Optimizer capability.

 

[somebodyelse]

That's a very restrictive set of requirements, and apparently contradictory in places.

No wires except power cables

Source: Digital (on- and offline), but I surely want to be able to connect an analogue source via cinch. HDMI preferred.

The setup must work without internet. Preferably also without any external WLAN.

So clearly there are exceptions to the 'no wires' for HDMI and analog inputs. Are there any other exceptions? Would Power-over-Ethernet be allowed as it's both a power cable and a network cable? How long must it work without internet given that online sources need internet access, and that in turn needs wired or wireless access?

I think you can rule out Sonos unless they've rowed back on needing an internet connection.

The Wiim Ultra might be ok - if you configure a static IP on the wired network connection it will work without a local network, but the touchscreen interface is limited so you could switch inputs but not browse music from a local USB drive. There have been requests for better standalone capability so they may have improved that. With a local network you can use the phone app and stream from local sources even if the internet is disconnected. I've seen it suggested but not confirmed that it does need occasional internet access - I'd imagine it's an unusual use case.

 

[Boggart]

Ah, and I thought I was being too elaborate
So, regarding the "casual playing to multiple people" ... most of the time it'll be me in different room locations. It's interesting and I have to think about it, but right now, I'm sceptical towards downmixing. For example, when something catches my attention acoustically, I may look for a "sweeter spot" temporarily and enjoy the channel separation.
Thanks @staticV3 also for the HW suggestions, actually I did have the PocketADC on my radar already. Regarding the miniDSP Flex HT, are you suggesting to use the Dante-output for wireless connections to WLAN speaker/sub? This sounds quite tricky and not very robust, with static IPs and all.

Thanks @somebodyelse for calling out the "no wires except power cable", this is a constraint for the speakers only. Per default, it would also apply to a central hub (if there is such) as I don't have wired LAN at all. HDMI and cinch are just options I want to have for temporary use. And there should be Bluetooth, I forgot that.

Maybe a use case detail: I'm moving regularly between two apartments/cities, and I'm taking my mobile router along. However, the lack of WLAN and internet should not prevent the setup from working. (If need be, it wouldn't be too difficult to keep a WLAN without internet access running, so that's just a soft constraint.) Guests should be able to connect via Bluetooth, they'd have their phones as streaming device, too. I imagine the Sonos may work in such a setting?

 

[staticV3]

Regarding the miniDSP Flex HT, are you suggesting to use the Dante-output for wireless connections to WLAN speaker/sub? This sounds quite tricky and not very robust, with static IPs and all.

Not really, depends on the type of speaker you end up with.

With passive, you'd do Flex->RCA->Amp->Speaker wire->speaker.

With active, you'd do Flex->RCA->Speaker but then you'd have two wires going to each speaker. One for signal and one for power.

If you want active but only one wire per speaker, then I can think of two options: smart speaker with WiFi for audio, or Genelec Smart IP series where a single Ethernet cable carries both power and data.

 

[Flaesh]

For inspiration. And so it'll be easier for me to find this thread later. I think it's a mono system for people facing each other:

 

[Ellebob]

Something like the Kef LSX II and add a sub. One speaker has all the connections, so it can't be wireless for the analog input. You can get a wireless sub adapter if you use a sub.

 

[Boggart]

Not really, depends on the type of speaker you end up with.

With passive, you'd do Flex->RCA->Amp->Speaker wire->speaker.

With active, you'd do Flex->RCA->Speaker but then you'd have two wires going to each speaker. One for signal and one for power.

If you want active but only one wire per speaker, then I can think of two options: smart speaker with WiFi for audio, or Genelec Smart IP series where a single Ethernet cable carries both power and data.

Ah, well, I see. Other than the power cable, for which I have sufficient sockets everywhere, either of these solutions would require cables crossing the room. That I do not want.
I think it'll have to be some kind of WiFi like connection (but ideally intrinsic to the system, like the DALI Sound Hub, or how the KEF LS50 communicate amongst each other).

For inspiration. And so it'll be easier for me to find this thread later. I think it's a mono system for people facing each other:
View attachment 544756

This property is a tad more exclusive than anything I could relate to
The speaker looks very much like a BeoLab 5 (which should deal well with the corner placement, other than true omnis) and I suspect there's another one hidden behind the rear end of the horse-lamp.

Something like the Kef LSX II and add a sub. One speaker has all the connections, so it can't be wireless for the analog input. You can get a wireless sub adapter if you use a sub.

Thanks! Any specific reason why you suggest the LSX II over the LS50 in this setting?

 

[Flaesh]

I suspect there's another one hidden behind the rear end of the horse-lamp.

I haven't find any confirmation or denial of this.

 

[Ellebob]

Thanks! Any specific reason why you suggest the LSX II over the LS50 in this setting?

Price. Plus I would add a sub.

 

[Sokel]

Devialet Phantom II, all the way.

 

[Boggart]

Regarding the Devialet Phantoms, I haven't quite understood how they work and perform. There surely is a lot of information out there, but it's kind of difficult to discover the valuable info amongst the wealth of aesthetically driven excitement - not so unlike the situation for various B&O speakers. I will look into them more though, thanks for the suggestion.

I wonder, why there isn't some standard protocol out there, to have a node (pre-amp, streamer, w.e.) generating it's own little WLAN, to then connect active speakers w/ WLAN interface to it. Interchangeable setup, independence from environmental setup (well, yes, power is needed) ... should be fairly easy to implement. Not having WLAN is nowadays a rare use case, I know, but still, this seems so easy ...

In search a wireless solution I stumbled on airlino. Has anybody experience with that? Apparently, it's device independent (based on an external WLAN), and should allow room correction (that is, if the node has the capability to realize room corrections, and IF it's sufficientl syncronous).
Apart from the obvious wiim setup, are you aware of the other similar alternatives?

Regarding the speaker, I got my initial LS50 and BL3 options with optional sub(s), the LSX II with mandatory sub, or maybe the Devialet. Still, I'll appreciate every fruther suggestion.

 

[somebodyelse]

I wonder, why there isn't some standard protocol out there, to have a node (pre-amp, streamer, w.e.) generating it's own little WLAN, to then connect active speakers w/ WLAN interface to it. Interchangeable setup, independence from environmental setup (well, yes, power is needed) ... should be fairly easy to implement. Not having WLAN is nowadays a rare use case, I know, but still, this seems so easy ...

It seems easy until you try to make it work. The main problem is not having a standard way to sync time sufficiently accurately over WiFi. On wired networks PTP(v2) is used for this, but it doesn't work over WiFi (IIRC because the latency is too variable, so it ends up performing worse than NTP). The hardware probably has some of the necessary timestamping capabilities now because it's used for time-of-flight location (which does have a standard in 802.11mc), but as in bluetooth there isn't a standard way to expose it and use it for time sync. It is sometimes accessible in bluetooth chipset manufacturers' proprietary APIs though, and I've seen someone report using it for time sync using code that only works with that manufacturer's bluetooth chips on the manufacturer's help forum. Similarly it can be done with WiFi chips from specific manufacturers, such as the ESP32 used in FTS:

Disciplined Timer - slaves fine-tunes (with 25ns granularity) the period of the its local timer to make it fire in sync with the master (<100ns jitter).

I'm now wondering whether that could be combined with AES67 on ESP32-P4 to make an open wireless option, even if it is limited to a specific chip. It might also be worth looking into the linux source to see what FTM data gets exposed, and at what level. https://github.com/domienschepers/wifi-ftm has some pointers.

Meanwhile we get proprietary solutions like Sonos, and ones manufacturers can license like WiSA, or the lossy multichannel bluetooth audio.

 

[Boggart]

Thanks a lot, that's very interesting!
I'm a little familiar (from a totally different context) of the intricacies of time synchronisation and can relate. A little programming, too. But I'm not going to engage there.
I got more questions now than before but they're likely not helping the topic.

As you mention Sonos explicitly though - is there reason to believe a wiim network does not perform on a similar level?

 

[somebodyelse]

As you mention Sonos explicitly though - is there reason to believe a wiim network does not perform on a similar level?

Unknown. I've not looked into what Sonos may have patented on this front, whether Wiim/Linkplay advertise being able to sync multiple wireless speakers sufficiently well for stereo/surround (well...they do for surround with the Ultra) or whether anyone's actually tested time sync for either Wiim or Sonos. I've only got one Wiim device, and no desire for Sonos, so can't test it myself.

 

[Marc v E]

If I understand you correctly, you need a system that's very good, but can be easily moved between apartments.

If it were me I would look at sonos speakers. They sound pretty good in a room with many reflecting surfaces.

I would personally avoid a complicated setup with subs and very revealing speakers because it will probably show you all the time what is lacking and wrong with your positioning and/or room.

 

[Marc v E]

Devialet Phantom II, all the way.

This is a very good idea ( I didn't like the original phantoms; the phantom 2 is a lot better apparently, is compact and has deep bass.)

Measurements for speaker Devialet Phantom II

www.spinorama.org

Bron: GitHub https://share.google/jQpK4Umm3DWCqR4B9

 

[Marc v E]

Regarding the speaker, I got my initial LS50 and BL3 options with optional sub(s), the LSX II with mandatory sub, or maybe the Devialet. Still, I'll appreciate every fruther suggestion.

In my experience these 3 speakers sound so different, you would need to demo them.

Ime the ls50 is precise with very good imaging, but lacks bass;

The devialet 1 (previous generation) had a lot of thumping bass, where details from the mids and treble are not so obvious; based on preference score of version 2 this has changed and is now objectively the best out of the three.

The beolab 3 never offends- it plays good and bad recordings equally gentle. It projects a very wide mid/high soundstage that makes sure that everybody on the couch and beyond hears both channels, sacrificing some image precision. This is basically the exact opposite of the ls50 which is narrow and precise. And the exact opposite in dynamics of the devialet that wants to party and get noticed.

An equivalent in music imo would be comparing
Tears for Fears' "Mad World" (ls50) with
Kesha's "Die Young" (devialet) and
Norah Jones' "Chasing Pirates" (beolab3).

 

[Flaesh]

ears for Fears' "Mad World" (ls50) with
Kesha's "Die Young" (devialet) and
Norah Jones' "Chasing Pirates" (beolab3).

What a funny metaphor! What song, for example, could be used to characterize JBL 4367?))

 

[Marc v E]

What a funny metaphor! What song, for example, could be used to characterize JBL 4367?))

Haven't heard that one, unfortunately.