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Noise floor

spalmgre

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In amplifier tests there is the noise performance as compared to the signal level. But I can not see what is the noise floor level without a signal.
Maybe I don't understand how to read it from the tests!? So inform me how.

This is important when using very sensitive compression drivers with typical sensitivity of 102db 1W. But it seams also to be a problem with active speakers as JBL 305 and such with D-amplifiers.

The power amplifier chip LM3886 data sheet say that the signal-to-noice ratio is 92db and that the noise floor is 2.0uV witch sounds pretty good. The noise floor as such is seldom fond.

In the NAD C268 you say "You easily clear the CD/streaming content's 16 bit dynamic range at almost any listening level. " But you will have quiet moments in any music on any listening level. This is comparable to TV screens that are leaking and therefore can't produce absolute black.
 

DonH56

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The datasheet will typically provide SNR relative to something like 1 W or maximum output, perhaps 100 W. From there you can calculate the noise level with no (or any) signal.

E.g. if an amp exhibits 100 dB SNR at 100 W then the noise floor is 100 dB below 100 W or 10 nW (100 / 10^(100/10) ). Convert to voltage depending upon the load impedance, e.g. for 8 ohms P = V^2/8 so V = sqrt(8*P) = 2.8e-4 Vrms = 283 uVrms.

Check my math in case a typo snuck in but that should give you the idea.

HTH - Don
 

RayDunzl

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Example of what I have:


Idle noise signature - no signal


index.php




And with 5W tone into speakers


index.php


Can't say the "noise" changed significantly from no signal to signal - harmonics are added.

No "noise" is audible though the speakers.
 
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spalmgre

spalmgre

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I’m interestid in the question does d-class amplifiers produce more noice. Or is it just a question about execution.
Will I hear noice from my compression driver horns if I invest in Hypex ore some other more expencive amplifiers.
I use -12db pads with present amplifiers to get a quiet background. So where do I go from here.
 

DonH56

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I’m interestid in the question does d-class amplifiers produce more noice. Or is it just a question about execution.
Will I hear noice from my compression driver horns if I invest in Hypex ore some other more expencive amplifiers.
I use -12db pads with present amplifiers to get a quiet background. So where do I go from here.

Class D amplifiers do not in general produce more audible noise than other amps, and often less. By design the switching noise is decades above the audio band and thus inaudible, and most use switch-mode power supplies as well so 60 or 120 Hz hum from the power supply is gone. My gut feel is as a group they are generally quieter than many of not most other (A, AB) amplifiers but you need to look at each one. Look at the SNR numbers, see what the actual noise voltage out is, and go from there. Many of the new class D amplifiers have noise floors well below that of more conventional class A and AB designs -- and some, particularly pro-level amps, do not.

IMO - Don
 

Vasr

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Class D amplifiers do not in general produce more audible noise than other amps, and often less. By design the switching noise is decades above the audio band and thus inaudible, and most use switch-mode power supplies as well so 60 or 120 Hz hum from the power supply is gone. My gut feel is as a group they are generally quieter than many of not most other (A, AB) amplifiers but you need to look at each one. Look at the SNR numbers, see what the actual noise voltage out is, and go from there. Many of the new class D amplifiers have noise floors well below that of more conventional class A and AB designs -- and some, particularly pro-level amps, do not.

IMO - Don

I got my first Class D amp recently, a cheap multi-channel one. Asking this since you seem to have much experience with Class D.

What I noticed when I set it up and listened (relative to using an AVR earlier) is that the silences are really silences unlike the AVR which had a very feint hissing sound. Using the pre-out of that AVR to the amp so everything else is the same. This indicates a lower noise floor from the amp yes?

However, there is another difference I am not happy about. This might have nothing to do with Class D but just a bad amp design. It seems to attenuate really low volume sounds (anywhere in the spectrum) so much so that it feels like some of those details are just missing. I can hear it if I turn up the volume but then the other relatively louder sounds gets too loud.

This is also making it difficult to get seamless surround sound (have done volume and phase alignment using REW). Smooth transition from back to front or vice versa typically have a gradual fadeout/fadein. It seems like it cuts out too soon in the speaker that is fading out and cuts in a little late in the speaker it is fading so there is a spatial jump from rear to front or back. This does not happen with the amp in the AVR.

I am trying to get an understanding of what measurements correspond to what audible characteristics. Is the above likely an issue with power available, or dynamic range or linearity?

In a related question (I am not very familiar with electronic design), can an amp designer insert a "noise gate" in the circuit that just chops off all signals below say -100db and so look good on noise measurements but lose detail like the above? Just curious.
 

Head_Unit

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can an amp designer insert a "noise gate" in the circuit that just chops off all signals below say -100db and so look good on noise measurements but lose detail like the above?
Many if not most CD players adopted circuitry to hard mute their outputs upon seeing a strings of zeros in the digital data. This was a way to cheat and measure huge "signal"-to-noise ratios with "zero data" test tones. As I noted elsewhere, I got annoyed by a competitor doing this and used an NAB test track (1 LSB at 22.05 kHz, "the smallest signal you could put on a CD"). I made visual graphs showing we kicked all competitors arses. I was going to write software to notch out the FFT bin that had the LSB to get actual numbers but didn't have time and the visual graphs were better anyway.

It is technically possible in amps as well. Your question is tickling my brain regarding some product of old but it's not quite coming to me. I don't think any amps are doing this currently (??) but it's a reason to plot noise floors with some kind of signal present. Stereophile or somebody used to make graphs of noise floor modulation, i.e. showing the noise floor with softer and softer signal. The idea was if the noise floor was shifting with level that would be an undesirable behavior.
 

Vasr

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It is technically possible in amps as well. Your question is tickling my brain regarding some product of old but it's not quite coming to me. I don't think any amps are doing this currently (??) but it's a reason to plot noise floors with some kind of signal present. Stereophile or somebody used to make graphs of noise floor modulation, i.e. showing the noise floor with softer and softer signal. The idea was if the noise floor was shifting with level that would be an undesirable behavior.

Appreciate the response. It is one thing to mute when there is no signal content (which would have better residual noise specs), but quite another to have a "noise gate" which just attenuates signal below a certain threshold level. It is the latter that is more of a skullduggery if it can be done to cheat. I know what the effect of such a unit is in my guitar pedal chain, do it all the time. It does sound quieter. I am not sure which current measurements such a hypothetical "noise gate" in an amp would affect and if it did it to the better or worse for the metric.

Perhaps we should have something between a single tone test and a multi-tone test where there would be multiple tones but everything except one tone (1khz at 0db) was lowered steeply in level going away from the 1khz tone on either side. If there was any kind of dubious attenuation, it would be evident in the response to those lower level tones I think. And any abnormal shifts in noise floor compared to the regular single and multi-tone test anywhere in the FR.
 

Panelhead

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In amplifier tests there is the noise performance as compared to the signal level. But I can not see what is the noise floor level without a signal.
Maybe I don't understand how to read it from the tests!? So inform me how.

This is important when using very sensitive compression drivers with typical sensitivity of 102db 1W. But it seams also to be a problem with active speakers as JBL 305 and such with D-amplifiers.

The power amplifier chip LM3886 data sheet say that the signal-to-noice ratio is 92db and that the noise floor is 2.0uV witch sounds pretty good. The noise floor as such is seldom fond.

In the NAD C268 you say "You easily clear the CD/streaming content's 16 bit dynamic range at almost any listening level. " But you will have quiet moments in any music on any listening level. This is comparable to TV screens that are leaking and therefore can't produce absolute black.

The thing I look for in the accepted test of 1 KHz @5 watts into 8 ohms is the noise floor and the height of the spikes. Many amps have a baseline around -130 dB. This is also a factor of the number of samples used. But look to see where the noise comes in.
If the highest levels are under -100 dB the amplifier is quiet. Seeing “huge” spikes at multiples of the AC line frequency look bad, but usually are inaudible. Caused by a linear power supply. Switchers and resonant mode do not have the 50 or 60 cycle ringing.
But when the spikes start getting to -80 to -90 dB I know this will not match well with 105 dB horns.
 

Vini darko

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Going to commit arch heresy. Does your avr have dynamic range adjustment? If so try turning it down. This should decrease the difference between loud and quiet sounds. It may help with your current surround issue.
Edit: answer is for @Vasr
 

MattHooper

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The subject of "Noise Floor" brings to my mind it's place in the audiophile tweaker-verse. Everyone wants to lower their "noise floor" to reveal untold depths heretofore hidden in the signal. You have guys on audiogon with a system endlessly tweaked, from expensive cables..."the noise floor was lowered!"...then to power conditioners "lowers the noise floor"....then add cable risers...."finally got rid of some of that noise!"....to tweaks to their amp and digital system "further reduction of the noise floor!" They say it's just one veil removed after another.

It's like these audiophiles have some Infinite Hearing Sensitivity that just has no measurable limit, hearing endlessly in to depths even measurement devices can't fathom. Must be fun having magic powers.
 
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spalmgre

spalmgre

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If you can hear it (noice) then its there. If you don`t care then you are lucky. But when not playing loud then the noice floor is the limit of the dynamic. But this is a special situation when using compression drivers with sensitivity abow everything else.
 

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Krobar

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Example of what I have:


Idle noise signature - no signal


index.php




And with 5W tone into speakers


index.php


Can't say the "noise" changed significantly from no signal to signal - harmonics are added.

No "noise" is audible though the speakers.

Hi Ray,

Could you help me out with how I can measure power amp idle noise with a Focusrite Forte? I'm trying to sort a possible ground/noise issue and just want to be able to record differences so doesnt need to be perfectly calibrated.
 
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spalmgre

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I like to add that it is not uncommon that active speakers with d-class amplifiers do have an audible level of hiss/noise. JBL 305, 708, and also Kali speakers have several forum posts about this topic. I have also the same experience with cheap D-class boards.
So how can one shop for quiet amplifiers? DonH56 did earlier explain how to calculate the numbers. But how low do we need to go? Must one accept that Lpads are always needed with horns? Or is the way to use headphone amplifiers as some M2 repro owners seams to do.
 

roog

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The subject of "Noise Floor" brings to my mind it's place in the audiophile tweaker-verse. Everyone wants to lower their "noise floor" to reveal untold depths heretofore hidden in the signal. You have guys on audiogon with a system endlessly tweaked, from expensive cables..."the noise floor was lowered!"...then to power conditioners "lowers the noise floor"....then add cable risers...."finally got rid of some of that noise!"....to tweaks to their amp and digital system "further reduction of the noise floor!" They say it's just one veil removed after another.

It's like these audiophiles have some Infinite Hearing Sensitivity that just has no measurable limit, hearing endlessly in to depths even measurement devices can't fathom. Must be fun having magic powers.

The term 'Noise Floor' interests me, partly because I am reading Douglas Self's book on Small Signal systems design and he is clearly interested in minimising noise but equally identifies that once below a certain threshold, (sorry i can't quote him, I must re-read that section!) it is job done as any further improvement would not be noticeable.

But mainly because people on audio forums keep going on about it, dropping it into discussion like it somehow demonstrates their greater understanding. More often than not I suspect that they have little idea of the statement or its significance. I confess that my understanding is limited. Of particular amusement to me are the owners of a premium UK brand of amplifier which is known for being inherently 'a bit noisy' who bang on about how their new DAC and separate PSU has, "improved the sound by considerably lowering the noise floor". I don't suppose for one minute that they have measured the noise floor before and after the change so why target this parameter, especially as their amplifier is probably swamping the noise produced by their new DAC anyway.

So my question is, is there a recognised level at which the noise floor in audio electronic systems at which the noise floor becomes intrusive and how is this presented? and do any of the reputable brands get anywhere near this?
 

DonH56

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Supposedly the threshold of hearing is 0 dB SPL although most rooms have quite a bit more noise than that. A dynamic range of 100+ dB is usually considered adequate though @amirm and @j_j use a higher number, around 130 dB worst-case, I think? Many brands reputable or not can achieve 100 dB SNR (signal-to-noise ratio), far fewer 130 dB, and in the real world it will generally be less. And there is the fact that we can can actually pull signals out (hear them) when they are below the noise floor, since noise is random but signals repeat so we can hear the signal patterns "through" the noise.

In any event your audio system is indeed a system so a single number is not all that relevant or useful. Noise adds through the chain, sort-of... It is not a linear addition, more like RSS, so total noise is the square root of the sum of the noise components squared, ntot = sqrt(n1^2 + n2^2 + ...) Assuming all the noise sources are uncorrelated (different, not related to each other). And you have to take the noise to some reference point, like the speaker output, to see where the system noise floor really is.

For example, your DAC has a noise floor, so generates some level of noise. You connect the DAC to a preamp, so the DAC's noise is multiplied by the gain of the preamp, and at the preamp's output you have the DAC noise Ndac times the gain Gpre plus the output noise from the preamp Npre. Then you go to a power amplifier that has its own gain Gamp and noise Namp. Finally you have to generate the output signal from the speakers. Assuming passive speakers, the noise the add can usually be neglected, but they do have a "gain" from input to output that converts the power amp's signal to the audio signal you hear. It is easiest to stay with the same units all through the chain so I'll use voltage (power = voltage squared / resistance).

At the amp's output you get roughly Nout = sqrt[(Ndac*Gpre*Gamp)^2 + (Npre*Gamp)^2 + Namp^2) for noise. You also have the signal from the DAC (Sdac) multiplied by all the gains so Sout = Sdac*Gpre*Gamp. Now the signal-to-noise ratio is Sout/Nout and in dB for voltages is SNR = 20*log10(Sout/Nout). That gets you the SNR of the electronics. Assuming the speakers add no noise, not unreasonable for passive speakers (and for active speakers their noise becomes the amp noise), that gets you the SNR of the system sans room noise.

Unfortunately it gets more complicated in the real world (doesn't it always?) Some noise is more intrusive than others, and we are more sensitive to midrange noise than low or high frequency noise (see equal loudness curves). Some hiss in the upper midrange may be more intrusive than a 50/60 Hz power supply spur. If the room happens to have a peak at the MLP at 120 Hz, then noise from the power supply may be more intrusive than the hiss at a lower level. And of course there are household items that raise the noise floor, appliances, HVAC, barking dogs, crying babies, etc. If the noise in your listening room is 50 dB, then a 40 dB noise floor at the amp's output may be adequate. If you have a nice quiet room that hits 10 dB SPL noise then 100 dB of SNR through your electronics may still be audible (intrusive or not). Only studios hit that sort of number IME; my room is well-isolated, well-treated, and hits around 30 dB or so with me in it looking at (not holding! on a tripod) an SPL meter.

So the simple answer, choosing 100 dB or 130 dB or whatever, is just a starting point, alas.

HTH - Don
 
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j_j

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Supposedly the threshold of hearing is 0 dB SPL although most rooms have quite a bit more noise than that.

This is very true, especially in the modern world. More to the point, the threshold of hearing is above 0dB SPL at both ends (20 and 20K) of the spectrum and drops to as much as -15dB SPL or so at the most sensitive point for an unimpaired listener.

The average room is going to be 35dB SPL or upwards of that, giving masking levels about 5 to 10 dB below that noise.


A dynamic range of 100+ dB is usually considered adequate though @amirm and @j_j use a higher number, around 130 dB worst-case, I think?

If we're talking about a listening room in a home, 130dB is entirely excessive. For instance, if the masking level in a room is 20dB SPL, and the peak level out of your stereo speakers is 115dB, you only need 115-20 = 95dB noise floor relative to peak.

Yeah, we have rooms (industrially built) that are a whole lot quieter than that. But we're also not using average equipment there, either, we're not.

The discussion on how noise adds in Don's comments are quite reasonable.

The only thing, of course, that one must recall, is that generally both room noise and equipment noise floors are not flat, i.e. they are not white noise, or anything like that. Ergo, it is likely that you'll need more than that 95dB *if* your noise is, for instance, mostly lower frequencies, below 200Hz or so. (this is typical)

On the other hand, if you're old like me, you probably don't hear much at 0dB SPL any more, either.

In a near-perfect setup, where the noise floor in the room is the noise floor of the atmosphere, which works out to about +6dB SPL white noise, or about -15dB SPL in the band around the most sensitive part of the ear, then you may need more total SNR. *BUT* most recording venue's will just be adding in the noise you're not.

I have calculated, several times, that about 18 bits will suffice for home listening under almost any circumstance at all. That works out to 18*6.02 dynamic range, even taking into account noise floor with a common spectrum.
 

Blumlein 88

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I've measured a few domestic living rooms/listening rooms. Noise levels are in the typical 35-40 db SPL range. Even these levels are usually when quiet as in no HVAC, no lawn mower up the street, no traffic coming down the road. Those usually were around 10 db SPL in the 3-5 khz range.

Excepting pure electronic musical creations, I've found no recordings that in the 3-5 khz range are more than 90-100 db from full scale to the noise floor.
 

DonH56

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Thanks for chiming in, JJ ( @j_j )!

For the record, 18 bits ideally provides SNR of ~18 * 6.021 + 1.76 dB ~ 110 dB as JJ said, assuming only quantization noise.
 

roog

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Oh wow, more complicated than I thought.

Thank you for your very educational contributions.
 
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