No, not another cables matter thread!

[Mr. Widget]

Well, hold on there before you blow a gasket... I will show you why they matter.

I was comparing a couple of high end DACs and I could hear a distinct difference between them. Well, that's not supposed to happen. A subtle difference in their filters maybe, but this wasn't subtle. I set up a very carefully controlled ABX test and compared the two DACs. We were able to be differentiate between the two DACs 16 out of 20 times. Hmm...

I shipped the DAC that sounded "less good" back to the factory for QC evaluation and it was deemed to be in spec. Then I had it tested by someone else and it came back with an excellent bill of health. After these objective evaluations the DAC was returned to me and I compared it again with the other DAC and it still sounded sub-par.

I played several test tracks including one that had several examples of the channels being in and out of phase. Bingo, the "lesser" DAC was out of phase. Since it had been tested by two different individuals I thought it must be in my playback chain. I tested my factory terminated XLR cables and sure enough one of the channels had pins 2 and 3 reversed.

So, don't ever say that cables don't matter... they do!

 

[DVDdoug]

So, don't ever say that cables don't matter... they do!

Nobody will argue that a defective cable sounds the same as a properly functioning one.

Cables CAN matter but usually they don't.

P.S.
That sounds like it was VERY frustrating and annoying!!!

 

[sam_adams]

So, don't ever say that cables don't matter... they do!

In this instance it is not the 'cables'—meaning the actual connectors, conductors, insulation, and geometry—but the workmanship in the termination of the connectors that was at fault. It's been said before—here and elsewhere—that it is an imperative to verify quality of workmanship of any pre-made cable that you purchase.

 

[Mr. Widget]

In this instance it is not the 'cables'—meaning the actual connectors, conductors, insulation, and geometry—but the workmanship in the termination of the connectors that was at fault. It's been said before—here and elsewhere—that it is an imperative to verify quality of workmanship of any pre-made cable that you purchase.

All true, my point was that even something as simple as a cable can't be taken for granted. Like most here, I assumed that my quality cables with Neutrik connectors were beyond reproach.

I mean, how many of us verify the DCR, inductance. capacitance, and polarity of our cables before using them to make sure they are not concealing an issue?

 

[Mr. Widget]

P.S.
That sounds like it was VERY frustrating and annoying!!!

Yes, absolutely, but mostly I was embarrassed by how long it took for me to figure it out!

 

[sam_adams]

I mean, how many of us verify the DCR, inductance. capacitance, and polarity of our cables before using them to make sure they are not concealing an issue?

I make all my cables. I test and verify everything before I close up the connector. I do this because I know I make mistakes from time-to-time and I want to be certain that it's not me who screwed the pooch when it doesn't work right.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I make all my cables. I test and verify everything before I close up the connector. I do this because I know I make mistakes from time-to-time and I want to be certain that it's not me who screwed the pooch when it doesn't work right.

100%
All of my longer cables are assembled by me and tested by me because I know I'm not infallible. But I assumed that production line cables were properly constructed... lesson learned.

 

[dweeeeb2]

100%
All of my longer cables are assembled by me and tested by me because I know I'm not infallible. But I assumed that production line cables were properly constructed... lesson learned.

better check the other end. Perhaps thats wrong as well

 

[pderousse]

Can you describe your system and the test, in particular the cable brand you were using and the DACs?

I had a similarly frustrating experience with a mass produced and very popular cable brand. Unfortunately, if you generally accept the idea that cables ‘are all basically the same’ as a kind of dogma, then this can lead to the false assumption that they can never be the source of your problem. In my case the xlr pins were shorted and it took a very long time to find.

 

[egellings]

Well, hold on there before you blow a gasket... I will show you why they matter.

I was comparing a couple of high end DACs and I could hear a distinct difference between them. Well, that's not supposed to happen. A subtle difference in their filters maybe, but this wasn't subtle. I set up a very carefully controlled ABX test and compared the two DACs. We were able to be differentiate between the two DACs 16 out of 20 times. Hmm...

I shipped the DAC that sounded "less good" back to the factory for QC evaluation and it was deemed to be in spec. Then I had it tested by someone else and it came back with an excellent bill of health. After these objective evaluations the DAC was returned to me and I compared it again with the other DAC and it still sounded sub-par.

I played several test tracks including one that had several examples of the channels being in and out of phase. Bingo, the "lesser" DAC was out of phase. Since it had been tested by two different individuals I thought it must be in my playback chain. I tested my factory terminated XLR cables and sure enough one of the channels had pins 2 and 3 reversed.

So, don't ever say that cables don't matter... they do!

The cable connections matter, not necessarily the cables themselves.

 

[Galliardist]

The cable connections matter, not necessarily the cables themselves.

Outside of audio, I've had problems with damaged Ethernet and USB cables. They aren't always easy to spot either.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Can you describe your system and the test, in particular the cable brand you were using and the DACs?

Not really the point...
Regarding the cables, they are fairly common pro audio cables with Mogami cable and Neutrik connectors. I am not sure where I picked them up or who assembled them.

 

[sam_adams]

But I assumed that production line cables were properly constructed

Every company that 'manufactures' cables does not do so to NASA Workmanship Standards. Although, those standards are something that a responsible tech could aspire to as-long-as they were aware of the commitment necessary to achieve them.

 

[Ropeburn]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, pins 2 and 3 reversed on one cable would effectively result in an inverted phase signal on one stereo channel.

Which is overly obvious, very annoying, and barely tolerable. I had this error briefly due to a wiring mistake before, and with stereo music it immediately seems like something is seriously wrong with one of your ears.

You literally can't miss it. It's shouting in your face: something is going very wrong here!

... and you attributed this to sound character differences in a DAC exactly how?

 

[Mr. Widget]

You literally can't miss it. It's shouting in your face: something is going very wrong here!

Exactly... it sounded weird. Though it was much more obvious with some content than with other content. Since this wasn't headphones and it is a real room scenario, it wasn't like the bass was cancelled though the mid bass was generally muted, the center image was sort of inside out and lacking depth.

Yes, in hindsight it is screamingly obvious, but not when you aren't expecting it to be something as simple as that. I assumed that DAC number two was broken so I had it checked out... twice!

... and you attributed this to sound character differences in a DAC exactly how?

As far as I knew, I was only comparing two DACs. Of course I was also comparing the internal wiring of my preamp and the patch cables. I correctly assumed there was nothing wrong with my preamp, however it took me longer than I'd like to admit to tracking it down to the patch cables.

 

[sam_adams]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, pins 2 and 3 reversed on one cable would effectively result in an inverted phase signal on one stereo channel.

 

[Chrispy]

Poorly contructed/implemented connectors don't have a lot to do with the cables themselves....

 

[mcdn]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, pins 2 and 3 reversed on one cable would effectively result in an inverted phase signal on one stereo channel.

Which is overly obvious, very annoying, and barely tolerable. I had this error briefly due to a wiring mistake before, and with stereo music it immediately seems like something is seriously wrong with one of your ears.

You literally can't miss it. It's shouting in your face: something is going very wrong here!

... and you attributed this to sound character differences in a DAC exactly how?

That really is the point - something as gross a channel being inverted phase, when listened to in a room, isn’t as obviously wrong as we might like to think! I had an out of phase woofer once and it was weeks before I realised what was going on.

 

[pderousse]

Not really the point...
Regarding the cables, they are fairly common pro audio cables with Mogami cable and Neutrik connectors. I am not sure where I picked them up or who assembled them.

Coy. I would think others could maybe benefit from knowing a brand that - perhaps - should put a bit more $$ into quality. So if that is not the point, are you encouraging skepticism of all cables, based on this experience?

 

[Mr. Widget]

Coy. I would think others could maybe benefit from knowing a brand that - perhaps - should put a bit more $$ into quality. So if that is not the point, are you encouraging skepticism of all cables, based on this experience?

Not at all. I have lots of cables and many are pro audio cables. The companies who make them do not typically put a name on them. There is the name of the wire manufacturer (Mogami, Canare etc.) and of the connectors (Neutrik, Amphenol, etc.) I don't remember where these particular cables came from, who made them, or who sold them to me. They were not el-cheapo Guitar Center generics, but not ridiculously over priced audiophile nonsense either.

Skepticism? Heck no, just a cautionary tale of the headache a simple screw up at the factory can cause.