No love for Magnepan???

[raindance]

@MRC01 pretty much inline with information that I found out about Maggies. The Crown xls 2002 with 375Wpc-650Wpc-1050Wpc into 8-4-2Ohm should be more than enough to let them sing yeah?

It'll drive them fairly loud and the bass will sound strong, but the high frequencies will be rolled off. I know, I've tried it. By comparison, my ancient Adcom GFA5400 seems to have almost infinite treble extension and my Parasound HCA1500 has better top to bottom balance.

 

[josh358]

I would say Magenpans get no love on ASR because there isn't a body of data suggesting that their sound aligns well with double-blind tested listener preferences for what is good.

Whereas, rightly or wrongly, speakers that are given the initial benefit of the doubt (in the absence of other data that could over-rule everything) are those whose directivity maps well to the design goals advocated by the Harman school of design and Geddes.

At least they're an "unknown" , whereas ML electrostats were studied and generally finished low in blind listening tests.

They're big believers in blind testing and won't release a product or make a change until two listening panels have expressed a preference for it in a blind test. Not only does this make for some consistently good sounding products, but it contributes to their price/performance ratio, since they won't upgrade a component unless it makes an audible improvement in the blind tests. So no iridium wire with bat fur insulation!

 

[LTig]

200wpc is the entry level for Maggies. What he was hearing was most likely the amp clipping. I had the same thing with a 180wpc amp and Maggie 1.6's. A larger amp resolved those issues as well as stopped the fuses from blowing.

There is a big power difference between 101dB horns and 86dB planars.

Can't second this. I had a pair of MG 1.6 for 13 years and drove them with an Amber ST70 which delivers 120W at 4 Ohm both channels driven. Had no problems with power. Keep in mind that for a perceived doubling of loudness you need approximately 10 times the power. Means that a 20W amp will deliver just half the perceived loudness compared to a 200W amp.

 

[MRC01]

If I understand and calculate correctly, with my room 35-40dB noise floor, average music about 87dB. Any amps with SINAD > 65dB would be clean enough for me, more than that it'll just be drown in room noise.

It's not that simple. The noise floor is not absolute. We can hear correlated signal (music) into the noise floor. Also you want your peak levels to be below the amp's max continuous power. Some amp max power ratings are at 1% distortion, which is audible in the midrange and lower treble. The 3.6/R measure about 0.1% distortion in the treble (actually, even lower because that includes distortion from the mic), so the speaker will not mask this.

 

[josh358]

They are hard to measure properly, since near-field is not what you hear, and far-field is affected by the room. So their published measurements typically understate their best-case potential performance (when set up right) and people who trust measurements more than their ears don't like them.

Yep. Stereophile deserves part of the blame for this, since they measure them in the near field and the bass levels look ridiculously high when you do that, because the dipole cancellation is incomplete. Then too, it's hard or impossible to do a good gated measurement indoors with a long line source, and even if you measured in an anechoic chamber the room itself is necessary for a line source to function properly since it depends on the floor and ceiling reflections to extend the line acoustically.

This is one case in which I think in-room measurements are necessary -- but then as you say the measurements will be affected by the room!

 

[g29]

Can't second this. I had a pair of MG 1.6 for 13 years and drove them with an Amber ST70 which delivers 120W at 4 Ohm both channels driven. Had no problems with power. Keep in mind that for a perceived doubling of loudness you need approximately 10 times the power. Means that a 20W amp will deliver just half the perceived loudness compared to a 200W amp.

But that has nothing to do with amps clipping and causing the speakers to distort and fuses to blow. If you are overdriving the amp, you are overdriving the amp and there will be distortion.

I had 2 tracks that had peaks that would routinely cause the amp to clip while none of the other tracks would unless I turned the volume up much further. Those 2 tracks became my benchmark for testing other amps. Both were vocal tracks and one had organ accompaniment.

 

[thanhh]

@MRC01 , base on Amirm measurement of my amp's little brother- Crown 1502 as in picture. Do you think, in the most practical sense, the amp is good enough in my lounge room? Thanks in advance.

 

[LTig]

I have a love-hate relationship with Magnepan, [..]
My hate for these speakers comes from the fact that Magnepan did not apply sound manufacturing processes and principles to their older designs. While I can't comment on their newer designs, you will find many idiosyncrasies in their older builds - 100's of staples used to fix the fabric covers to the frame, strips of painted over masking tape to hide things, lots of variability in the coil position between the magnets, staples "tacking" the driver to the frame, etc. The older speaker's wire coils have limited contact area with the Mylar film and tend to de-laminate as a result. You will hear older Maggies buzz at particular frequencies and if purchasing second hand, always run a frequency sweep test at high volume and listen for any buzzing or rattling sounds which will indicate that the the coil has lifted in places or, the frame has loosened, etc.

Been there, done that. I owned MG 1.6 from 1991 to 2004. Some day one speaker started to rattle when driven with higher bass SPLs. Finally I opened it (well, took down the cover) and found out that the wires had become loose. I contacted the importer and he gave me the advice to buy a specific glue and fix it on my own (that's what he would do anyway, and it would cost me money). I managed to fix the speaker but it was a real mess and it took me 3 trials until the wire finally sticked to the membrane.

Somewhat later the second speaker got the same problem and I fixed it as well, this time being faster due to experience.

Even with the shoddy build quality, Maggies actually sound very good and are a pleasure to listen to casually - I still enjoy my MG1.6 speakers that I occasionally listen to. At the same time, they are not very accurate and are fussy about amplifier pairing even though they are supposedly an easy load. Like the original Quad ESL's my MG1.6's sound wonderful with acoustic jazz and chamber music but don't do a good job going loud and deep with full scale orchestral works and rock / blues. The larger true ribbon HF MG3.7's etc can go louder but need a large room to work well and will dominate the decor. I was tempted to upgrade to MG3.7's but instead opted for JBL LSR 708P's in the end and I don't regret my decision at all.

I loved them for their big sound. I stumbled upon them when visiting the dealer where I had bought a CD-Drive/DAC combo shortly before. A customer auditioned them and I really liked the representation/soundstage (coming from DIY speakers using KEF chassis). After the customer had gone I asked for a loaner over the weekend, got them and never brought them back.

In 2004 a former colleague asked me for help looking for speakers since he had already visited several shops and had not found anything he liked. We drove around a lot and by chance visited a dealer which also had a big active studio monitor. My colleague liked it but it was much to expensive. So I took him to our local musician store and there he fell in love with a small 3-way active monitor (K&H O300D). He bought three of them and two smaller ones (K&H O110) for a surround setup.

On this trip I also fell in love with both the big active studio monitor and the O300D. 6 months later I stumbled upon a very good offer at ebay (new pair of O300D sold by a musician store) and bought them on the spot.

I have to tell that I had already thought about replacing the MG 1.6 with its newest version (MG 1.6 QR) but the price in Europe was more than twice than in the US and I really felt screwed doing this deal.​

Now, when I listened to the O300D the first time in my room the first thought entering my mind was "I did not know the Maggies were soooo bad". As a side node let me explain that I play drums and listening to drums on the O300D is quite an experience compared to the limited dynamics of the MG-1.6.

So summaring my (subjective!) experience with MG 1.6:

• big sound - everything sounds big, even small sources. Its a nice soundstage but not accurate at all.
• very pleasing and natural sounding mids
• low resolution in the highs - very forgiving when sound quality of the recording is bad
• bad dynamics
• seductive for music with not too high dynamics. I have two colleagues owning MG 3.x and both prefer classical music - although classical music can be quite dynamic. Listening to opera voices on MG 3.x however has a certain appeal.

In comparison the O300D:

• very accurate soundstage:
  • a mono source appears as a very small strip in the middle position between the speakers
  • normal stereo sources spread between both speakers
  • special recordings spread in a 180 degree space, e.g. Stings album Soul Cages ( q-sound recording)

which means a great recording sounds great, a bad recording sounds - well, not so great​

• very accurate frequency response
• good resolution of details but not over the top (not bright or airy)
• great dynamics (typical for most active speakers)

One more funny story: After getting the O300D I sold the MG-1.6. The potential buyer wanted to audition them in his home so I visited him with the speakers in the car. When we brought in the first panel his wife immediately started to complain loudly: "Oh no, you must be crazy, they look awful and are soo big, you cannot do this, ..." and so on. I saw my chances drop dead to sell them.

However, after we installed them and listened to the news on FM his wife came out of the kitchen (I know I know, you think I'm kidding you, but I swear to whatever god you name this is true) and said that it was much easier to understand the news. We let her listen to some music as well which she liked, and since you can move the panels to the wall when not needed they finally agreed to buy them.

 

[josh358]

@MRC01 , base on Amirm measurement of my amp's little brother- Crown 1502 as in picture. Do you think, in the most practical sense, the amp is good enough in my lounge room? Thanks in advance.
View attachment 41523

I tried an XLS 1500 and sent it back. Put a good amp on them -- the Hypex would work within its limitations, or any decent AB amp. These Crowns are designed for use in PA systems.

 

[MRC01]

@MRC01 , base on Amirm measurement of my amp's little brother- Crown 1502 as in picture. Do you think, in the most practical sense, the amp is good enough in my lounge room?

Based on that graph, I would pick a Hypex NCore 400!
But to answer your question, there is nothing in that graph to suggest that the Crown couldn't drive Maggie 3.6 or 3.7 adequately. Yet based on Amir's full review of the Crown 1502, it's not a bad amp but the Maggie 3.6 or 3.7 are good enough speakers to deserve cleaner amplification. The Crown isn't bad, so the improvements from a cleaner amp will likely be subtle, but with a nice transparent speaker like this I'll bet they could be audible.

 

[CDMC]

Longtime Magnepan owner here. SMGa's, 2.7s, .6, MG-12 and presently 3.5r's which I had rebuilt by Magnepan last year and added Mye Stands.

As others have pointed out, Maggies are very had to measure because of their large radiating surface and being dipolar. They do have their own "boxless" sound, but also are not as dynamic as traditional piston speakers. Over time the dynamics of Maggies have improved, but box speakers have also improved sounding less boxy. As a result, I am actually considering trying box speakers for my main system (Salk Song 3) (I use piston speakers on my desktop system, Totem Mites).

Unlike many with Maggies, I listen primarily to rock, some rap, electronic, and atmosphere music. I find they work great for all, but use a subwoofer with mine and cross them over at 80hz to relieve the panels of low bass duty.

As others have pointed out, Maggies are low in efficiency, but basically a resistive 4 ohm load. So you don't need a high current amplifier per say, but one that comfortably drive a 4 ohm load. For power, with smaller Maggies like your MG-12, I have found 200 watts per channel into 4 ohms is plenty. With the larger 2.7s and 3.5s, I have found they like more power, 200 watt/ch into 4 ohms limiting dynamics, 500w/channel being better. I use 600w/ch for mine and find it adequate (about 4.5 db additional headroom over 200 watt/ch).

 

[Ron Texas]

@MRC01 , base on Amirm measurement of my amp's little brother- Crown 1502 as in picture. Do you think, in the most practical sense, the amp is good enough in my lounge room? Thanks in advance.

Crown XLS amplifiers are good enough and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I am using one with picky LS50's and so is another member of this forum who is one of the more knowledgeable and technically capable ones.

 

[CDMC]

Can't second this. I had a pair of MG 1.6 for 13 years and drove them with an Amber ST70 which delivers 120W at 4 Ohm both channels driven. Had no problems with power. Keep in mind that for a perceived doubling of loudness you need approximately 10 times the power. Means that a 20W amp will deliver just half the perceived loudness compared to a 200W amp.

Keep in mind that tube amps clip much more gracefully than solid state and can be driven further into clipping before it becomes objectionable, so less power can work with tubes v. solid state.

 

[sfdoddsy]

If you want the advantages of dipole radiation without the dynamic limitations, the Linkwitz LX521 will probably float your boat.

 

[thanhh]

Wow, thanks guys, so much useful, down to earth no magic involved info.

Crown XLS amplifiers are good enough

The key words are :"good enough"
Having three young kids at the moment, the only way for me to pursuit my hobby is the more pragmatic the better. So my thinking is like this:
+ My room noise is 30-40dB, my average SPL at listening seat is 87-90dB, I'm happy with another 10dB dynamic headroom. So any amps with SNIAD > 65dB are good enough.
+ In my case, I found out that apart from different speakers, speaker positions, room treatments and EQ bring biggest change in sound, so amps are not my 1st priority in upgrade.
+ My number one priority in music is sound stage and speakers' disappearing act, if any speakers do that and when I listen to them, no bands of frequency stand out too much, I'm happy.
+ That's why I chose the Crown amp, good enough, does what it's supposed to do well and cheap

 

[thanhh]

If you want the advantages of dipole radiation without the dynamic limitations, the Linkwitz LX521 will probably float your boat.

I haven't had a chance to listen to any open baffle speakers before, so I'm curious about them too.

 

[josh358]

Wow, thanks guys, so much useful, down to earth no magic involved info.


The key words are :"good enough"
Having three young kids at the moment, the only way for me to pursuit my hobby is the more pragmatic the better. So my thinking is like this:
+ My room noise is 30-40dB, my average SPL at listening seat is 87-90dB, I'm happy with another 10dB dynamic headroom. So any amps with SNIAD > 65dB are good enough.
+ In my case, I found out that apart from different speakers, speaker positions, room treatments and EQ bring biggest change in sound, so amps are not my 1st priority in upgrade.
+ My number one priority in music is sound stage and speakers' disappearing act, if any speakers do that and when I listen to them, no bands of frequency stand out too much, I'm happy.
+ That's why I chose the Crown amp, good enough, does what it's supposed to do well and cheap

The main problem I had with the Crown I tried was that it would go to pieces when pushed hard. Image would collapse practically to mono and it sounded strained and compressed. Not subtle and not something I expected given their generous power rating. If that isn't happening to yours, then there's no reason to worry about it. Most people, including me, don't listen at such absurd levels anyway.

 

[thanhh]

Thanks for the heads up, I'll look out for it when I receive the Crown. Based on measurements and specs, it should not do what you said right? Strange!
If the Crown doesn't work out then I can think of anything in the price range that have the same specs

 

[josh358]

Thanks for the heads up, I'll look out for it when I receive the Crown. Based on measurements and specs, it should not do what you said right? Strange!
If the Crown doesn't work out then I can think of anything in the price range that have the same specs

Definitely should not do that. Maybe I had a defective unit, or maybe it goes to pieces when it starts to clip. Whatever the issue was, the amps I was comparing it to didn't do it, so I sent the Crown back to Amazon. But I'd emphasize that I was pushing the amp -- most people would never drive it that hard in normal use. As I recall, it was fine at more reasonable listening levels.

Finally, if the Crown *doesn't* work out, remember that you don't need all of those specs. I agree with those here who say that Maggies require a fairly large amplifier, but unless you listen at higher levels than most people do, you really don't need a supersized amp.

 

[sfdoddsy]

Some of the other Crown amps with built-in DSP are worth considering too.

I used a CD1 for many years with Maggies and Apogees. You can do your own Room EQ, and crossovers for subs.