Nightclub speakers - what makes them sound like they do?

[levimax]

Well, probably. Looks promising, anyway. What are the passbands of the drivers as-configured? And their sensitivities? And what is the distance to the listening position? Given the visible toe-in, I'm guessing pretty short, in which case you are likely well covered on the lowest passband. Not as confident about the midbass and domes, which may disperse too widely for ideal projection of forward "club" energy. Would love to give it a listen!

The crossover is 180 Hz LR 12 Linear Phase FIR. Listening distance is 2 meters. Since the sub and woofer are within 1/4 wavelength of each other and effectively on the same baffle the pre-ringing cancels. The higher crossover point rational was since the subs and mains are closely colocated there would be no localization issues so I could optimize everything else. At 180 Hz both the sub and main woofer are operating in a very linear range for both FR and phase so a great place to crossover. The steep slope assures the entire crossover stays in the linear range for both drivers without any additional DSP. The subs are very efficient with 1,300 watts per channel and will play at least 12 dB louder than the mains so plenty of headroom for even a little wise DSP boost to flatten FR and they play with very low distortion. Also by crossing @ 180 Hz to the KH 310's I gain ~6 dB output from the mains. My final theory is that "slam" lives between 200 Hz and 20 Hz so having that entire range on one powerful driver with Linear Phase crossovers so very little group delay will maximise dP/dT. Hard to measure but it seems to work.

 

[agathastacy]

A lot of that “club sound” comes from highly efficient horn-loaded designs, massive headroom, and very controlled dispersion the systems are barely working even at huge SPLs, so distortion stays surprisingly low. The room tuning is also a huge part of it; good clubs spend serious time on alignment, crossover tuning, and acoustic treatment. For home use, high-sensitivity speakers with waveguides/horns plus good sub integration will get you much closer than typical hi-fi bookshelf speakers, even without going full PA system.

 

[111db]

Thanks! I don't think 180hz is at all too high for sub to midbass xover if sporting 2-channel stereo subs as you are doing. My system has a single sub (18" B&C commercial cinema driver) crossing to LaScala bass bins with pro drivers at 100hz, next crossover up is to huge EV cinema horns at 600hz. Listening distance more like 3 meters but in a large spacious nonrectilinear listening space with lots of room behind. Works for me! I wonder if you would get even more slam by crossing the subs even higher as I would guess your listening distance is borderline for getting "nearfield" energy from 8" midbass drivers. I am curious how much the midrange passband contributes sharpness to especially abrupt tones such as low and mid register piano, tympani, etc., even kick drum where the sharpness of the attack is said to live upwards of 1000hz. So I should compare those with and without the mid horns and/or with high q filtering to see what's what.

 

[111db]

A lot of that “club sound” comes from highly efficient horn-loaded designs, massive headroom, and very controlled dispersion the systems are barely working even at huge SPLs, so distortion stays surprisingly low. The room tuning is also a huge part of it; good clubs spend serious time on alignment, crossover tuning, and acoustic treatment. For home use, high-sensitivity speakers with waveguides/horns plus good sub integration will get you much closer than typical hi-fi bookshelf speakers, even without going full PA system.

Exactly so.

 

[levimax]

Thanks! I don't think 180hz is at all too high for sub to midbass xover if sporting 2-channel stereo subs as you are doing.

In my experience Linear Phase crossovers help with slam but I am paranoid about pre-ringing so went to the trouble of putting the subs on their sides so I could get the woofer and subwoofer as close to each other as possible and at 1/4 wavelength the leads me to 180 Hz. It is way too much work to try to "ABX" horizontal vs vertical alignment of the subs but subjectively I think they sound better horizontally. I think one of the reasons time domain audibility remains unsettled science is that it is too hard to test and even harder to then have someone else duplicate the test results.

 

[mitchco]

Not me in the picture but gives you some context as to the size of this club system. The Community L&S "boxer bins" would kick you in the stomach with the front loaded 18" drivers. The infamous M4 midrange horn would make your eyes involuntary blink with the crack of the snare drum. High efficiency and high power handling produced crystal clear sound. Each HF horn had 2 compression drivers to keep up with the single M4 midrange and the 4 x 18" drivers x 2 boxer bins. Something like 10 kilowatts of power per side in amplification. It was a big club too, but this system played effortlessly, loud and clean, with no ear plugs required. I have not heard club sound like that in a long time.

 

[KL....]

Would the Avantgarde Acoustic DUO GT/Grande Twin or Mezzo G3 be acceptable for Nightclub utiliseation (SPL/107dB)....

or

 

[gnarly]

Would the Avantgarde Acoustic DUO GT/Grande Twin or Mezzo G3 be acceptable for Nightclub utiliseation (SPL/107dB)....

No, the double 12"s for subs could never carry a nightclub.
They look like very exotic 12"s with 6'' coils,..... not sure what that is all about, other than marketing???
But displacement is dispacement, and 12"s no matter the stroke, can't carry a club.

 

[Truth Ness]

Btw, i still mix at home with a MiniDSP in my system, and don't notice the delay neighter. And i mean i still mix like with vinyl whatever the medium is that use. I did dj 15 years only with vinyl before i started to use cdj's, i don't use the sync and other tricks, i don't even really know how to use them as I never felt the need to find out how that works.

I have a similar background, many years of vinyl only before using cdjs (mainly because of all the music that was not released on vinyl at all, and it also is plainly more convenient if you don't have to drag a bag of records with you).
I don't play that often in clubs etc any more the last couple of years. But when i do, the first thing i do is switching the sync function off.

 

[111db]

No, the double 12"s for subs could never carry a nightclub.
They look like very exotic 12"s with 6'' coils,..... not sure what that is all about, other than marketing???
But displacement is dispacement, and 12"s no matter the stroke, can't carry a club.

Yes, also a club wouldn't spend for exotica when perfectly suitable and cost-effective pro components would work just fine.

 

[WerT]

I've a pretty high end and powerful system with horns and 3.5kw of power and 98db efficiency and it still won't give you 'club sound'.

I think you need folded horn subs with 18 inch drivers - mine are only 15inch. It's also likely the tune at 60hz is the 'hit in the chest' frequency. So maybe i could get that if i chopped off the lower end and pushed up the 50-60hz area instead of going to 18hz

 

[Waxx]

Clubs don't do that, they got subs to at least 40Hz tuned, often lower these days. But seldom below 30Hz. And folded horns are used, but also reflex and quarter wave resonator (paraflex and similar) types. But what today is mostly common is to stack them in a cardioid array setup, mostly to avoid noise complaints by steering the sound in the right direction. Advanced dsp is in that scenario critical.

In smaller clubs, it's mostly reflex altough, but also tuned to arround 40Hz or lower and there often not cardioid. Underground electronic music uses more paraflex (or other quarter wave resonators) or reggae soundsystem style (modern engineered scoops grouped by 4 subs) as subs in their raves.

 

[pablolie]

simple - they are evil and are designed to deafen you.

 

[EJ3]

I am intrigued by the number of speakers - please explain!

Meanwhile, in a loft in a small German Country town:

 

[EJ3]

Originally, all music was live... for centuries! Recording was a way to approximate the music at home. That makes the "original live" performance the reference.

Technically live and outdoors or in a large venue. (my preferred way to listen, with friends).

Some music is still best live, depending on the music and the venue. Amplified rock sometimes sounds best outdoors with only artificial reverb. Live music in "small clubs" can sound pretty bad depending on the music and performers. But if they know how to adapt to the acoustics they should be able to get good sound.

I've got a shelf full of concert recordings on DVD (and one or two Blu-Rays) and most of it sounds great in surround sound. But these recordings are close-mic'd and multi-tracked so technically they are studio-like, except the musicians are playing together at the same time, there are fewer "studio tricks", and some room sound and audience noise is mixed-in.

And my preferred things to listen to (and watch) at home. I am never just sitting down to listen, so...

 

[EJ3]

Except commercial/professional recordings are dynamically compressed killing the dynamic contrast, which is a big part of live sound. And IMO, the "impact" of the loudness is a lot more enjoyable when there are dynamics.

I have great cassette recordings ([now digitized] done with great cassette decks attached to the mixing board) of great bands that played at a night club I worked at and helped design the sound system for (Spyro Gyra was a really surprising one in the early 1980's), as well as the local 60 piece community band (partially a subset of an orchestra) that did a lot of outdoor venues with all sorts of music (Hollywood show tunes, Marches ,etc), that beats the hell out of a lot of commercially sold music (dynamically and otherwise).
As do many of the 12" singles (LP's) for club DJ play.
CLUB SOUND & open air venue sound are my favorites. (Yeah, I know, 2 extremely different things).
Back then much could be done with (analog) 31 band EQ per channel, (analog) Parametric EQ, (analog) DBX units & other added on gear (if you knew how to integrate them and use them without being heavy handed).
Naturally, with todays digital gear, it COULD be beat, but I don't feel that it being beat is typical. There is (has been, I hope that it's leaving the scene) too much "loudness wars" (and other types of audio manipulation) compression being used in a heavy handed way on much commercially available music.
Yes, it's getting better. But: it could have been better many years ago. (As the Allan Parson's Project [along with various others] proved.

 

[Multiway]

Would the Avantgarde Acoustic DUO GT/Grande Twin or Mezzo G3 be acceptable for Nightclub utiliseation (SPL/107dB)....

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Aside from subs lacking my main concern would be lack of directivity control.
You want the dance floor to get the HF etc, not the walls and ceiling and it bouncing everywhere reflecting.

Need to get then high up to fire down at the audience / floor.