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Nightclub speakers - what makes them sound like they do?

Gimme slam and clean SPL, over lacquer and good looks any day.
Yes. An interesting thing about drivers that are generously sized for forwardly projecting the "slam" within their passband is that this occurs at any listening level. It's about more than just increasing max spl. And orchestral and other acoustically produced music benefits at least as much as modern electric stuff. Reviewers often find this notable and surprising, because they don't understand the physics of wavefront propagation.
 
Yes. An interesting thing about drivers that are generously sized for forwardly projecting the "slam" within their passband is that this occurs at any listening level. It's about more than just increasing max spl. And orchestral and other acoustically produced music benefits at least as much as modern electric stuff. Reviewers often find this notable and surprising, because they don't understand the physics of wavefront propagation.
You mean like this :)
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How about dynamic, distortion free music?

The SPL is really up to you.
Plus, I would suggest that you could argue, that speakers that distort ie. without this ability, are actually the ones that are unrefined.

The ability to go loud, doesn't necessarily mean you have to play loud. But a speaker having headroom, and effortless dynamics, plus a lack of unwanted compression, is always a good thing surely.

YMMV.
 
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Honest question. Let's say a speaker is designed to play at 100+dB all day long. The voice coil and associated components would be engineered to dispose the heat and account for thermal expansion. The suspension systems would be similarly quite stiff and robust. What happens if you take that speaker and play it at 60+dB in a domestic setting? @Duke?
 
Sorry. I can't help with a more knowledgeable or detailed answer, but I do think that a well designed driver, that is capable of high SPL can also be good at lower volumes too.

I found out years ago that the T300 Tannoys shared the same "SuperDual" type driver as the Kingdom Royal. This was Tannoys flagship hifi speaker, costing $50k+
I have attached a link which explains how it is made plus the theoretical benefits thereof. This is the reason I have been after a pair of the T300s for a while now.

I think many people on ASR lump all PA type, pro-audio speakers together, and assume that just because they are made to play at high output levels, they must therefore be crude and harsh sounding. Or not sound good at lower levels. This is most likely true for a lot of them, but definitely not all. There have always been a number of very high quality models available from several manufacturers. However they are definitely in the minority. Just as it is with home hifi.

To me they definitely represent very good value if your budget won't stretch to Salon2 type hifi prices, but you are looking for clean high output capability. Particularly if you are prepared to use subs and EQ.

 
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Nightclubs are just loud. Nothing refined about it. Nothing I'd want home.
... but nightclub systems vary considerably. Some very good. Some awful.

For example, Ministry's Martin Audio stacks were incredible. They've been replaced recently however as the Martins were a good few years old. Hoping the new system is as good and will find out in a few months.
 
Honest question. Let's say a speaker is designed to play at 100+dB all day long. The voice coil and associated components would be engineered to dispose the heat and account for thermal expansion. The suspension systems would be similarly quite stiff and robust. What happens if you take that speaker and play it at 60+dB in a domestic setting? @Duke?

I can't answer for any and all systems, but I try to build stuff that have more dynamic headroom than what you normally find within consumer audio, and many of our drivers are sourced from pro audio manufacturers. Currently working on a dual 15" subwoofer. None of our systems have the "you have to turn it up for it to come alive" problem, including the in-progress subwoofer.

On the contrary, it sounds more unrestrained, effortless and punchy even at lower volumes.
 
Honest question. Let's say a speaker is designed to play at 100+dB all day long. The voice coil and associated components would be engineered to dispose the heat and account for thermal expansion. The suspension systems would be similarly quite stiff and robust. What happens if you take that speaker and play it at 60+dB in a domestic setting? @Duke?
Modern pro audio drivers have strong enough motors (when well designed), that that is not a problem. Old woofers did not have that, and needed a few watt at least to come alive, but not with modern high BL woofers. Also cone materials became a lot stronger, even paper cones, to withstand that. You will find very little metal cones in pro audio, most is doped fiber cones, often fiberglass or similar materials, because they do it best.
 
I can't answer for any and all systems, but I try to build stuff that have more dynamic headroom than what you normally find within consumer audio, and many of our drivers are sourced from pro audio manufacturers. Currently working on a dual 15" subwoofer. None of our systems have the "you have to turn it up for it to come alive" problem, including the in-progress subwoofer.

Are there ANY drivers where you have to "turn it up for it to come alive", or is that a myth?

Why do we have pro audio drivers and home audio drivers?
 
Are there ANY drivers where you have to "turn it up for it to come alive", or is that a myth?

There are some speakers who feel like that at least. I'm not going to venture into speculation of why.

Why do we have pro audio drivers and home audio drivers?

Different manufacturers with different goals? Why many hifi speakers (and drivers) don't prioritize high SPL is beyond me, but I guess many customers aren't playing very loud. How else are you able to sell 2-way speakers with 4" bass drivers for 50k USD?

There are of course also different design targets where for instance PA doesn't necessarily care about the lowest octave in the bass, they are happy to have way larger enclosures than you want at home, they need you to hear the sound at 40 meters (not 4 meters), etc etc.
 
Well, a low woofer qms can seem sluggish until you put 10+ watts into it.
But you can argue it has a low qtc (stronger magnet) that makes up for it.
Take the jbL 2204 vs 2206.
2204 (perhaps) sounds better closer to 1.2khz.

But yes, a pa driver that can take 300 watts rms, has a very strong spider / suspension so as not to rip apart.

And yes, duke would have an answer I too am curious about....
 
Frequency response would be my guess. Big midrange dip or suck-out.
I’d suggest it could be the opposite. So the sound is lacking fullness and weight until the SPL is high enough that our hearing (equal loudness contours) corrects the response.
 
There are some speakers who feel like that at least. I'm not going to venture into speculation of why.

I agree. IMO there are speakers that sound lifeless at low volume. Only when you turn them up do they seem to come alive. But I can't even speculate why, I don't know if it's my imagination or whether it's real!

Different manufacturers with different goals? Why many hifi speakers (and drivers) don't prioritize high SPL is beyond me, but I guess many customers aren't playing very loud. How else are you able to sell 2-way speakers with 4" bass drivers for 50k USD?

Well, many domestic speakers need to fit the decor, which means small cabinets. Many of them are also designed to a budget. High SPL isn't necessarily a priority. So I can understand the need for small drivers where SPL is sacrificed.

But what I don't understand are those "high end" speakers. If you have a tonne of money, the removes the budget restriction. Many of these speakers are also very large. If you have no budget or size restriction ... is there any reason not to choose a pro audio driver?
 
But what I don't understand are those "high end" speakers. If you have a tonne of money, the removes the budget restriction. Many of these speakers are also very large. If you have no budget or size restriction ... is there any reason not to choose a pro audio driver?

Pro drivers or not, I at least find it curious that many very expensive high end speakers don't seem to have SPL / headroom as a design priority.

There's no inherent reason to not choose pro audio drivers, and as you implied earlier there's nothing inherently different between a pro audio and hifi driver. But there are potentially some different design goals, and there are different manufacturers that target different markets. So there's not necessarily anything making a driver a pro audio driver beyond the way it is marketed and potentially the way it looks.

But a driver can be more or less suited for both pro audio and hifi based on its characteristics. Some drivers targeted to the pro audio market may not be as linear as a hifi driver because that is less of a priority, in the same way some drivers targeted to the hifi market may not be as high capacity as a pro audio driver because that is less of a priority.
 
Not sure about a midrange suckout, but I suspect that there is bound to be a compromise when it comes to ruler flat frequency response. You can't have everything. (Physics!)
Personally I am prepared to sacrifice "ruler flat" for lack of compression and effortless dynamics. Particularly when we have digital EQ. Before EQ things were different. Nowadays it is a given in pro audio that some EQ will be used. Obviously you want to use as little as possible to correct speaker flaws but I find it odd that lots of people here get fixated on ruler flat response, but often don't realise how important low distortion and good transient response are.

Another thing to mention is that often manufacturers make very good digital system controllers which are designed for use with their products. The one I am currently using cost £150 second hand and the presets are optimised for the T300s. (With or without subs.) Given the controller plus speakers cost just under £350, I suspect I will be hard pressed to find better bang for buck. The other added benefit is that due to their 100db sensitivity, and the fact I'm using subs it means a £100 Topping Mini 300 gives ample power for my current requirements. Currently I am in high SPL budget audio heaven!

Edit : Just to add that I switch between the Tannoys and a pair of Neumann KH310s and actually find it hard to choose which I prefer. They are different, but I wouldn't say that the T300s are inferior. Just different. Particularly with the TDX-1 EQing them as Tannoy intended.
 
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Are there ANY drivers where you have to "turn it up for it to come alive", or is that a myth?

Why do we have pro audio drivers and home audio drivers?
Don't you have professional horns in the high-frequency range yourself?

There may be a real technical basis for the observation that some speakers or drivers sound “livelier” or more confident at higher volumes, but this applies primarily to bass and fundamental frequency systems, because the excursions are large and the moving masses are comparatively high in those systems.

An important parameter here is the mechanical loss value Rms within the TSP, which, in my opinion, is often overlooked. Put simply, it describes the mechanical losses of the system—that is, friction and energy losses caused by, for example, the spider, surround, and friction. A high Rms value therefore means greater mechanical resistance. This can lead to more controlled behavior and less overshoot, but at very low volumes it can also cause a driver to sound somewhat “stiff,” “sluggish,” or less sensitive.

Particularly large bass PA drivers with dual spiders, heavy and large voice coils, and high power handling capacity can therefore sometimes appear somewhat less microdynamic than softly suspended home audio drivers if they are not well optimized or have a motor that is too weak, as this is counterbalanced by the BL value—that is, the strength of the electromagnetic drive.

A high BL value means that the motor can control and accelerate the diaphragm with great force. This partially compensates for some of the effects of high mechanical losses, and such drivers often sound subjective dry, precise, impactful, and have a stable output level. However, the powerful motor does not completely eliminate mechanical losses in poorly designed systems, as small signal components, hysteresis effects, and minor micro-movements continue to be affected.

For this reason, professional audio and home audio drivers often pursue different design objectives. PA drivers MUST prioritize power handling, high dynamics, and low compression at high levels, as they are intended to fill not just a living room, but stadiums and concert halls. Home audio drivers can be optimized for low mechanical losses, microdynamics, and completely linear behavior at both low and high levels, as Purifi and Seas do with the Revelator, for example.

For years now, I’ve relied almost exclusively on products from major PA driver manufacturers such as B&C, Faital, 18 Sound, Sica, Lavoce, RCF, Beyma, JBL, and BMS. I once used P.Audio for an experiment, and the new SB Audience models are likely to be very good as well, even though I haven’t installed them myself yet.

Thanks to FEA analyses, modern simulation methods, and Klippel modeling, there have been enormous advancements over the past 10 to 15 years. That’s why I personally no longer see any fundamental advantages to classic home audio drivers, even when it comes to fine dynamics and low levels. Many modern PA drivers seem much more refined today than in the past and now combine high power handling, low distortion, powerful drivers, and good control at a level that works excellently for me even in a home setting. In my opinion, the major professional manufacturers today simply deliver extremely well-developed products that—and this is extremely important to me—sound clean and transparent at any volume.

And then we have the opposite effect: a driver that is also very good microdynamically but has practically unlimited headroom in the home environment, which means virtually no distortion at very high levels—ideal for ASR, if you will.

However,> Regardless of this, there is often another factor at play > our own hearing. Due to the Fletcher-Munson or equal-loudness curves, we perceive bass and treble much more weakly at low volumes, and as the volume increases, music therefore automatically sounds fuller, more dynamic, and livelier—a quality often attributed to the speaker itself, even though a significant portion of this effect is psychoacoustic in nature. Many of you here know better than I do how best to adjust this using DSP and room correction. I’ve recently been using the WiiM Ultra for this, and sometimes the good old DEQ2496.

However, due to the large headroom of PA systems, this difference is much more pronounced than with, say, small bookshelf speakers—that’s something to keep in mind. In other words, a large speaker with PA drivers that you’ve been listening to at very high volume and then turn down will initially sound quite unspectacular.
 
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I'm also more going that way, experimenting with compression drivers and higher sensitive big woofers, but not coaxials like you use because there the woofer distort the tweeter. It will be or a MEH (but i need to study that more to understand it's design) or (probally on shorter term) a 2 way JBL 4367 like speaker, but a diy version of it. I don't claim i can do better, but it's for me more fun to develop and build myself than splashing out too much cash to buy one set. My girlfriend has a set at her house, and that is probally my favorite speaker that i know about. And similar style speakers that are done right are (EV, and some custom ones i know) do similar good things to my ears.

I know Tannoy coax speakers, i heared many of them, but they are to coloured and distorted for my personal taste, altough they do a lot right also. But no, not my cup of tea...
 
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