Nightclub speakers - what makes them sound like they do?

[Matt_Holland]

I work with Italian audio manufacturer, K-array and one of the best club-oriented systems I’ve heard is their Dragon KT18P which uses a very good 18”, 3-way coaxial, “tri-axial” driver.

A minimum spec setup for a club would be to use each Dragon with a double stack of 21” subs. A stereo pair of such a stack can either be driven by an 8x2500W DSP amp (ideally K-array for optimum speaker presets), or one of the 21” subs can be an active version containing its own 4x2500W DSP amp.

What I like about this tech is the controlled dispersion and sheer intensity of the sound which despite its incredible impact at all frequencies, maintains excellent linearity and low distortion.

Through our UK installation partners we have a number of small VIP clubs in London that use K-array’s more powerful compact line arrays such as the Kayman. You get excellent SPL capability and really good coverage, yet the installation is sometimes almost invisible. I find these line arrays to have a more refined, less aggressive HF response which I think suits these more intimate venues where the fidelity is appreciated and leads to lower listener fatigue.

 

[Waxx]

As former sound engineer specialised in rave/nightclub system and former dj (underground bass based genres) i can tell you most don't sound that good. But when it's done right, it's meticulous tuning of the system with dsp, coupled to high power systems that are often only used on half power to keep dynamics intact. Function One is a very popular brand of speakers because their systems are tuned for that kind of setup. In bigger spaces they now mostly use line arrays that are tuned to cover the whole space, but before we did that with point source systems also.

You can buy Function One systems for home, and they do sound as good as in clubs, when tuned right with dsp. The DSP is key i that, since at least the late 90's Before they used big horn systems, even old systems. The infamous Fuse club in Belgium had modified Altec A7's coupled to big horn subs in the first legendaric years, also tuned with active crossovers and eq (before dsp). Turbosound was also popular then, just like JBL cinema systems. I think the closest you will get now is with modern JBL cinema systems like the 4722n with their subs like the 4642A. The mutual specs are horn tweeters, big woofers which are often also hornloaded (but not always) and fine tuning to the space with processing (analog or digital).

About the dsp delay, pro audio dsp's don't have that too large delay mostly, certainly not when you go to the top systems like Lake, Symetric or BSS. But they cost a ton of money and are not easy to tune. It's an art on it's own to tune those, and it's measurements based.

Btw, i still mix at home with a MiniDSP in my system, and don't notice the delay neighter. And i mean i still mix like with vinyl whatever the medium is that use. I did dj 15 years only with vinyl before i started to use cdj's, i don't use the sync and other tricks, i don't even really know how to use them as I never felt the need to find out how that works.

 

[gnarly]

The only sound I like better than a good nightclub, is live-amplified in small to medium venues, indoors or out..
By nightclub, I mean recorded, dance type music. I've worked hard at being able to at least have excellent nightclub sound at home, and if it weren't for live stage backlines and drums etc, separating sound sources, I think I'm damn close to matching small live too.
Like every one has said.....formula is straightforward.. boatload of subs, compression drivers on horns/waveguides, and mid-bass & mids with the balls to keep up.
And the amp racks and dsp processing....
Forget the room....just overpower the damn thing... LOL
Depending, I've been running either a stereo rig or a 3 ch LCR. Each stack a main over a sub.
All DIY, all built with 1.4" coaxial compression drivers on synergy type horns. Typically Six to eight 18's in ported subs. 10-20kW.
Of course, rig doesn't get really cranked other than on right occasions...but when surfs up !!

Here's an example of some speakers..

Oh...dsp and latency. Not an issue at all I think. Most dsps, particularly less expensive ones, have little to no latency.
Expensive ones may have some latency,...... if they have FIR capability and it's being utilized.
That's one of the things that makes BSS, Lake, Q-SYS, ect cost $$$.....the ability to have latency (FIR)....not their lack of latency.

 

[norman bates]

I second the 4722 jbl's.

Much cone area 80-200hz give the slam feeling.

And yes, there is something to the acoustics of a room reflections vs a large area (decibel).
Going from a typical living room to a 30 x 60 room, the speakers went waaay louder and sounded clearer before becoming garbled.
I thought it was a distortion thing.
It wasn't.
It was an an acoustics reflection thing

My buddy swore by at least 2x12" woofers ( not subs, woofers) per side.
After having a single (DIY active crossover) 4722, 2 would be amazing.
Tactile bass at low volume.

 

[DVDdoug]

I've worked hard at being able to at least have excellent nightclub sound at home, and if it weren't for live stage backlines and drums etc, separating sound sources, I think I'm damn close to matching small live too.

Except commercial/professional recordings are dynamically compressed killing the dynamic contrast, which is a big part of live sound. And IMO, the "impact" of the loudness is a lot more enjoyable when there are dynamics.

 

[Sokel]

Lots of radiation area with low distortion and minimal excursion (hence the moderately about 40Hz low extension, instead of down to 20Hz, you can tell even by watching them, woofers [not subs] hardy move) .

I will forget my name, I'll never forget a time when I was about 12 yo on vacation with family.

The beach at the place was like a right angle about 3km each side.
The club was at the end of one side and at the end of the other side I could easily tell that they were playing "Bette Davis Eyes" (one of hit of the time) just by the beat.

Effortless playback, that's all.

 

[gnarly]

Except commercial/professional recordings are dynamically compressed killing the dynamic contrast, which is a big part of live sound. And IMO, the "impact" of the loudness is a lot more enjoyable when there are dynamics.

True that. Source material matters.
Different issue though, than discussing systems that can deliver SPL with dynamics....which I take this thread to be about?

I've preached uncompressed, unlimited SPL across the spectrum to the point I don't even want to hear it. I know I love the sound of it, and I know I have it because my rigs are used for live occasionally. Get to watch amp monitoring and real time meas, etc.

My point about backline and drums etc being something I can't quite replicate..... is about speakers again...takes multiple speakers when stage has multiple sources.
Cramming everything into stereo has its problems...

 

[kemmler3D]

Nightclubs are LOUD. No one can hear finesse in sound at 96dB+ levels, people. Nightclub sound is deafening. I always have earplugs handy. Protect your hearing while you still have it.

I would say this is why clubs with decent sound stand out. All clubs are loud, but some are loud and good. If you wear neutral earplugs you can at least tell whether there is insane distortion and uncontrolled bass.

On the other end of the spectrum I saw a lot of shows at The Congress in Chicago 10-15 years ago and the sound was truly awful at many shows. Loud, but giving the impression of broken vacuum cleaners and garbage disposals competing for attention.

 

[pablolie]

... If you wear neutral earplugs you can at least tell whether there is insane distortion and uncontrolled bass.
...

I am always on the lookout for the best neutral earplugs! If anyone wants to give recommendations... we probably should take it to a different topic. Fav ones are Etymotic ER20XS for now.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

molly

 

[Keith_W]

As former sound engineer specialised in rave/nightclub system and former dj (underground bass based genres)

A DJ once told me that nightclubs are in mono because there is no point of stereo in a nightclub. Is this true?

 

[pablolie]

A DJ once told me that nightclubs are in mono because there is no point of stereo in a nightclub. Is this true?

Absolutely true. Nightclubs are not designed for people to sit around discussing the differences in staging and such. Oh the surprise. :-D I'd say over 90% of nightclub or bar setups are dreadful. Just like most live concert setups are. I am not quite sure why these "live music" topics keep coming up as "references" in sound, but hey - that's just me.

If my home setup sounded like a nightclub or most live concerts I've attended, I'd throw it out the window. Again ... just my opinion.

Next up will be someone asking why his home setup can't sound as good as his car's... or his smartphone put on speakerphone... :-D

 

[Chrispy]

Off top of my head room size, speaker size.

 

[DVDdoug]

I am not quite sure why these "live music" topics keep coming up as "references" in sound, but hey - that's just me.

Originally, all music was live... for centuries! Recording was a way to approximate the music at home. That makes the "original live" performance the reference. When I first got interested in audio and started reading hi-fi magazines, all of the audiophiles were older guys listening to classical. It's still pretty-much impossible to reproduce the sound an orchestra and a concert hall in your living room. And personally, I wouldn't want to hear an orchestra (or a rock band) in my living room, even if they would fit.

Now, most "modern" music is "created" in the studio so there's no live reference. The Beatles famously gave-up performing live and started creating music that couldn't be performed live. One of the reasons was that they couldn't get good sound live, and they could barely hear themselves over the screaming girls. Sound systems are a lot better these days, musicians have in-ear monitors to hear themselves... and the girls don't constantly scream.

The song Frankenstein by The Edgar Winter Group was named from the way it was pieced-together from several different recording sessions. Of course a lot of music is created similarly. Most music in movies and on TV is totally MIDI and totally created in software.

Now, you could say the sound in the studio (after mixing & mastering) is the reference.

Some music is still best live, depending on the music and the venue. Amplified rock sometimes sounds best outdoors with only artificial reverb. Live music in "small clubs" can sound pretty bad depending on the music and performers. But if they know how to adapt to the acoustics they should be able to get good sound.

I've got a shelf full of concert recordings on DVD (and one or two Blu-Rays) and most of it sounds great in surround sound. But these recordings are close-mic'd and multi-tracked so technically they are studio-like, except the musicians are playing together at the same time, there are fewer "studio tricks", and some room sound and audience noise is mixed-in.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

Plywood. At least that's what I mostly notice.

 

[Chr1]

I reckon that good quality club style speakers are great value if you want decent SPL at home. Particularly passive, as you most likely won't need all of the power available on bigger actives. (Not much point in powering an internal kW amp in your living room, as even idle consumption will be relatively high.) All space/volume dependant obviously. As previously mentioned I am currently using a Topping Mini 300 which sips power. I bought a cheap Tannoy TDX-1 System Controller which has various DSP EQ presets for the V12s. One EQs them to play full range, which is great if you don't want to use subs.

Will most likely be using this setup in my potential future lockup as you can also feed four V12s "mono" like this. Picked up a couple of pairs of hanging yokes too. Will probably just add a second Topping Mini 300. Perfect for a budget lockup garage "club" setup methinks.
(Might need to source a smoke machine and a strobe..."Disco moto spannering". Lol.)

 

[Waxx]

The last years i did design a few custom lower power systems for garden or home use that have the "club and rave" sound, mostly with 12 or 15" woofers, and big or coax compression drivers in horns. Most of those systems, altough hardly playing over 100dB (even on garden systems) are designed to be able to go to 110 to 125dB max at one meter. This is for headroom and it makes a big difference. All are mono and controlled by dsp's, often DBX driverracks for price/qualit/durability reasons) altough one with a big budget use a Lake LMX48 dsp. Big woofers and cd's in horn (even crude horns) do make a big difference in this. None are ultimate hifi in the sense of high fidelity like promoted here, but they give the impression that they do because the system is not pushed to the end, and the owners love them. The guy with the Lakde DSP had Salon 2's, that he sold when he had his system for a few months.

The main importer (until recently) of Function One in Belgium that is a good friend, did a lot of hifi installs also with that brand, or shop installs. People want that sound that they know from the better club or rave systems, and don't like the hifi systems that are popular here. He did sell his bussiness because he's to old to do that heavy nightlife stuff anymore. Another friend made a mini reggaesoundystem with his company (Staxx Sound Solutions) and did sell hundreds of them in a few years without much advertising outside social media. They ship all over Europe and are mostly used in houses and gardens, not for public dances. It's a largely neglected market by the mainstream audio tech industry.

 

[gnarly]

Absolutely true. Nightclubs are not designed for people to sit around discussing the differences in staging and such. Oh the surprise. :-D I'd say over 90% of nightclub or bar setups are dreadful. Just like most live concert setups are. I am not quite sure why these "live music" topics keep coming up as "references" in sound, but hey - that's just me.

If my home setup sounded like a nightclub or most live concerts I've attended, I'd throw it out the window. Again ... just my opinion.

Next up will be someone asking why his home setup can't sound as good as his car's... or his smartphone put on speakerphone... :-D

I agree. I've come to expect nightclubs and live-sound to probably not sound good.....and 90% of time it's simply because they are too damn loud.
Sounding like the system is being overdriven.

And then occasionally,...... a band with great musicianship, playing through their own backline, using IEMs as monitors and keeping stage volume both powerful and pleasant, along with a FOH engineer blending in vocals and electronic instruments through the PA in balance with the stage....with good venue acoustics and a reasonably polite audience....well...
bingo...that's the live sound I want to replicate at home.

Because if live or a club aren't as good as 'occasionally' above...
Screw replication of that, I like my system at home cranked up, better than what I go hear somewhere.

I'm constantly amazed just how dynamic and awesomely good at higher SPL, that a lot of recorded can sound. Like others have said, just comes down to what the system can do and stay unstrained.
A lot of music is made loud, to be played loud...to rip Joe Walsh off....and becomes quire a different listening experience and a true joy, when played so...

 

[Chr1]

Indeed. And speakers that sound great at low to medium SPLs, but then fall apart and distort when pushed are a dime, a dozen.

High volume with very low distortion is a different matter. For those who want this, but can't afford the likes of Salon2s, good quality "club" type speakers are probably the best option.

PS. One of the reasons I love the big coaxials is they can also work well at near and midfield too. Plus in landscape/portrait orientation. Super flexible imho.

 

[smygolf]

I have always been a sucker for speakers with high sensitivity.
So when i built my setup i had the aim to be able to produce Very high lvl and low distortion.
Not that i will play that loud but even at higher lvl:s then normal the speakers are at idle.

When i was done i had a visit from a Dj friend and after playing around with the target curve - well we just laughed.
The room is also acoustically treated with an RT60 @ 0,2sec so it is hard to judge the dB:s cause it always plays effortless.

Setup - JBL Pro all over, main use is both movies and 2ch music.
(upper horn are not in used and a third sub behind MLP for Dirac Art)