Next Upgrade - DAC or Preamp? What’s the science say?

[DavidEdwinAston]

I’m one of those guys who’s into vinyl for the pomp and circumstance vs the sound quality. Or rather, I’m not expecting vinyl to match the quality of what I stream from Amazon or Tidal. I’m into vinyl for those occasions when I’ve a guest over, we’re knocking back a few glasses of wine, we have record jackets spread across the lounge table and we’re picking and choosing music as part of an “experience”. Sure, you can do something similar with an app, but for a guy who grew up with vinyl, dating girls who also grew up with vinyl, that shared experience trumps staring into an iPhone or iPad screen. When I’m alone, I generally stream because of the quality and convenience. No debate that that’s superior. But for entertaining, in a social environment, spinning those expensive, glossy black discs is something special… Just one old guys opinion…

A drawback Connor. Having to constantly get up and change the black shiny thing, doesn't half interfere with the relaxing boozing!!!

 

[ahofer]

I very much doubt there is any point to upgrading the Wiim or the monoblocks. Those are both audibly transparent, AFAICT.

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

"Different" isn't better.

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Connor1a]

I have a similar system: Phase Linear Model 8000 -> Parks Audio Waxwing -> WiiM Ultra -> Yamaha M-70 -> Warfedale Linton 85s

For carts I have a Denon DL-103, Nagaoka MP-110, and an AT-VM95SH. To be honest the AT cart is my least favorite but you could maybe say it is the closest to digital. Vinyl is just for fun for me and I don't need it to sound just like the digital version, however I do love the magic feature of Waxwing for removing pops. The Waxwing is truly a joy to use with the ability to play with the app while listening. If you're anything like me you will enjoy it.

I am also still playing with the EQ filters of the Wiim Ultra from time to time. I tried the EQ settings from Spinorama.org for the Wharfedales but wasn't completely satisfied. I ended up creating my own set of speaker correction filters which I prefer. I briefly tried the automated room correction but did not like how it sounded or looked on the graph. Since then I have tried MMM measurements and manual room correction using REW but I am still not completely satisfied. Dialing in a particular system for a given room always takes a while for me with respect to placement and room correction. Even when I had systems with Dirac I would end up remeasuring or trying different target curves to get the sound the way I like it.

I guess this is why they call it a hobby. The constant tinkering with electronics, cables, settings… It’s fun to see what you can accomplish. My challenge is, and always has been, patience. Taking the time to settle in and tinker. ** Thanks for the spinorama.org site url. I’ve been looking for Erin’s EQ settings for a while. Really appreciate those!

 

[Connor1a]

I very much doubt there is any point to upgrading the Wiim or the monoblocks. Those are both audibly transparent, AFAICT.

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

"Different" isn't better.

audiosciencereview.com

Quote from your post: “but own it”… I’d have said, “but lean into it”. Same message and I concur.

Hopefully, I’m not blurring those lines between scientific results (what I came here requesting - ie does the science support a new DAC or phono stage) and my qualitative impressions (my Sonos port connection sounds dull). Or rather, that’s exactly what I did and I received a firm no on the DAC - the science does not support a change (at least not an audible range). The phono stage is also likely a no, but the Waxwing may address my perceived problem through a different connectivity approach (native toslink out). It also happens to include a significant number of DSP options (fun but not scientific as I’m not staring at a bunch of room measurements with specific peaks or troughs that I need to address). So, I think I get what you’re trying to say. As I tell my girlfriend, I’m old and set in my ways, but I’m still trainable. Just put some newspaper down on the floor…

 

[dtaylo1066]

Quote from your post: “but own it”… I’d have said, “but lean into it”. Same message and I concur.

Hopefully, I’m not blurring those lines between scientific results (what I came here requesting - ie does the science support a new DAC or phono stage) and my qualitative impressions (my Sonos port connection sounds dull). Or rather, that’s exactly what I did and I received a firm no on the DAC - the science does not support a change (at least not an audible range). The phono stage is also likely a no, but the Waxwing may address my perceived problem through a different connectivity approach (native toslink out). It also happens to include a significant number of DSP options (fun but not scientific as I’m not staring at a bunch of room measurements with specific peaks or troughs that I need to address). So, I think I get what you’re trying to say. As I tell my girlfriend, I’m old and set in my ways, but I’m still trainable. Just put some newspaper down on the floor…

I recently got the WiiM Ultra and I think it sounds just fine when streaming music of Tidal, off my NAS, or when using my TT in either the Phone or Aux in (my TT has build in phone pre that can be switched on or off).

I am 68 and a recent, very in-depth hearing test showed I have a significant drop in hearing after 4K. So, as you age, while your ears are your reality, they are not hearing as they once did across the frequency range. Thus, I find the PEQ and room correction helpful.

I also wonder if my 20 year old DIY monitors are up to snuff. As much as we debate SINAD here, or even discuss subjectivism, I think that speakers are the main link in any decent audio system with acceptable SINAD. We know that speakers can certainly sound different, where as a difference is debatable in other audio components that meet certain thresholds.

 

[Chrispy]

You don’t think the Warfedale Linton 85s are up to snuff? I’d thought them relatively well received…

Never heard any Wharfdales myself, but have seen comments on the Linton 85s and while they seem competent, the route to a better/different sound would be mostly between your speakers and room.....maybe eq for electronics.

 

[kemmler3D]

My thought reading this thread is you should definitely try the room correction with the WiiM (maybe use a real mic and REW to develop the filters), this will take care of most "boominess" you are experiencing.

My second thought is you should rack your brain to figure out a way to get curtains on the windows in the listening room, and draw them while listening.

Those two things will do 10x more for your sound than the best phono preamp or DAC could possibly.

 

[Brian Hall]

As others have said, forget the DAC.

Also phone stage will be a marginal improvement at best, and probably not even that - except for the "Magic" noise reduction of waxwing.

But even then, there is more of an upgrade to be had in the region of better speakers, and or room correction. You can try out room correction with the Wiim if you have not already.

I disagree on the Waxwing not being as important. If you are going to listen to records, it is worth it. Especially if you have any older records that aren't in the best shape. The Waxwing really is magic.

 

[Connor1a]

My thought reading this thread is you should definitely try the room correction with the WiiM (maybe use a real mic and REW to develop the filters), this will take care of most "boominess" you are experiencing.

My second thought is you should rack your brain to figure out a way to get curtains on the windows in the listening room, and draw them while listening.

Those two things will do 10x more for your sound than the best phono preamp or DAC could possibly.

My challenge with REW is that I don’t own a PC or Mac. Gasp. I know. I gave them both up several years ago and went with an iPad + a keyboard. I’ve never had cause to look back. My son has a laptop though. Perhaps he’ll let me tinker with it.

I’ve used the WiiM’s RC w/ my iPhone many times now as I’m moving my speakers around as I can in my limited space. I keep reminding myself that it’s a hobby. It’ll take me some time to get the speakers dialed in.

Curtains eh? I have wood blinds. Would that accomplish anything like the same? I’m going to guess no. I’ll stew on this one…

Thank you sincerely for the reply…

 

[Connor1a]

I disagree on the Waxwing not being as important. If you are going to listen to records, it is worth it. Especially if you have any older records that aren't in the best shape. The Waxwing really is magic.

It arrives tomorrow. I’ll admit that I understand why the analog purist voice concerns, I mean you’re digitizing vinyl, but then on the other side of the coin, you have the DSP which has some exciting capabilities. Can’t wait to get it in…

 

[antcollinet]

I mean you’re digitizing vinyl,

So what? - as long as the ADC and DAC are competent, then what comes out of the DAC will be audibly identical to what went into the ADC.

 

[Connor1a]

No reason for a new DAC. The Wiim Ultra is as good as any out there within audible limits. The biggest improvement you can make is to replace your phono preamp with a Waxwing.

Do you run:

TT -> phono stage -> waxwing -> preamp -> amp

Or

TT -> waxwing -> preamp -> amp

The difference being keeping your analog phono stage in the chain with the Waxwing. If so, don’t you risk doubling up the gain (clipping)? Or can that be controlled in the Waxwing app? What about RIAA? Eager to get my hands on mine… Thanks much.

Edit: I’m asking as a reviewer on Head-Fi.Org stated his chain included both an analog phono stage and a waxwing.

 

[genesisaudiorack]

i have since listened to may phono stages. im sorta in love with my primaluna. it sounds very dynamic. i would upgrade if i found something better in the near future.

 

[Koeitje]

Science says the speakers (or add a subwoofer, or multiple subwoofers).

 

[Connor1a]

So what? - as long as the ADC and DAC are competent, then what comes out of the DAC will be audibly identical to what went into the ADC.

Peace. I meant no provocation. My point was simply that there are analog purists who would argue that the ADC / DAC conversions degrade the value of a pure analog chain. I’m clearly not that hard over on the principle or I wouldn’t have purchased a Waxwing nor would I be running a WiiM Ultra with Class D amps. I’m a hybrid guy whose gear is leaning heavily toward the digital realm.

 

[Connor1a]

Science says the speakers (or add a subwoofer, or multiple subwoofers).

A sub is on my longer term list of additions. My challenge atm is space. I literally don't have the floor space for one. My Lintons aren’t terrible on the low end though. I really do like them. With the right source material, they can be delightful… Fair enough though, I need to do a little research on subs…

 

[genesisaudiorack]

The science says, "Dump the vinyl".

Don't be afraid of EQ or "room correction". And if you are going to measure the room, maybe some acoustic treatment depending on what the measurements show.

And yeah... Different speakers will ALWAYS sound different (better or worse).


The digital stuff is probably already better than human hearing. The electronics is probably better than human hearing too unless you don't have enough amplifier power, or unless you are hearing noise (hum, hiss, or whine) from your speakers.

On the vinyl side, no matter how much you spend you'll never match the sound of cheap digital. It will always be technically inferior. (Some people like the sound of vinyl and they are not bothered by the 'snap". "crackle", and "pop", etc.. To them it sounds better and we can only say that digital is technically better.)


Most of the audiophile community is nuts! And most reviews are full of flowery undefined nonsense-language. See Audiophoolery

i built a custom room not attached to any building by my lake/train track. with decent speakers theres a boom inside, and a echo. what i ended up doing is taking advice's ive read about killing as many reflections and treating walls. for me my speakers are very musical and actually diminish the brittle, crisp, immediate response they have by just letting them play in a room like mine. 14x12 is the size of my office/cigar lounge. i however disagree with some people that rooms shouldn't be treated entirely. in fact if i could i would treat the whole thing but i have windows with blinds i use regularly so i really cant treat the windows or teh areas behind my computer or couch or small stuff spread around/ i went with a company called foam and more. they sell 4x8 rolls of 4" massive pyramid foam. i tacked it with sewing t needles. no marks on walls. i covered my entire ceiling, probably something like 90% of my walls and if i find more spots i add more. i put circufoam shaped pyramids they have for all my wall connections between and corners with square blocks in the upper corners.

now improvement. i left my revels ports open - however i layed foam behind the speakers and curved them into the walls into a specific shape so to speak.the amount of sound clarity tat was developed and demonstrated simply by dampening the areas behind the speakers was astonioshing. and its not just behind it, its wrapped pretty far on each sided so the foam extended past the angular cant of the sdpeaker direction it faces. yuou can scream in this room and you cant hear a echo or anything. this was seriously a major change in the end, as i can crank the revels up(with windows open of course) to concerto levels and there was NO distortion of speaker face distoprtion from over reflected sound waves(per say if i was to describe it)

i did not use the squares, i just got the mmost durable high quality stuff i could in rolls from that place. the whole room was only half a stack to do i think. but it wasnt very expensive. one notable thing was it worked better than high end dampening materials and prodcuts. ive been in my freinds rooms that are lik say 20x20 or more in size.....wehre they "strategically" placed bars, squares or random foam. and the rooms all sounded horrible. yes, better than without. but their ears were lying to them. after finding out they spent 5+ who knows(dem dudes never honest about what they spend) thousands of dollars i almost keeled over wondering weho would spend money on high end wall noise dampening products and they dont work. some of the foam is hard(ish) and thick non spongey - it reflects just like walls.

now i just collected info and applied it here, without sims or demonstration installation in spaces. i just layed on anything and everything i have space for and just started rolling foam up the walls like it was xmas. my thing is the more foam the better. it doesnt need to cost alot. one of my buddies used to buy cheap wool blankets from goodwill and his wife would sezw them into flag sizes peices and his room was covered wall to wall and ceiling and was one of the best rooms ive ever sat in.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, I'm in agreement with most posters I think: don't change your electronics, they are plenty good enough.
I wouldn't touch your vinyl setup either, any improvement will be marginal (law of diminishing returns) and not great value for money. The Waxwing sounds like fun though.

Definitely, totally investigate Room Correction.

If you want to go deeper into the audio rabbit hole, get a measurement microphone (umic-1 is standard) and have a go at measuring your own system in your own room.
Those measurements are your baseline: they show you where you might want to make changes and they show you if those changes did anything!
You don't need to do this, but it's interesting and enlightening.

After that, save up for better speakers

Or just listen to more music and enjoy it

 

[genesisaudiorack]

I’m one of those guys who’s into vinyl for the pomp and circumstance vs the sound quality. Or rather, I’m not expecting vinyl to match the quality of what I stream from Amazon or Tidal. I’m into vinyl for those occasions when I’ve a guest over, we’re knocking back a few glasses of wine, we have record jackets spread across the lounge table and we’re picking and choosing music as part of an “experience”. Sure, you can do something similar with an app, but for a guy who grew up with vinyl, dating girls who also grew up with vinyl, that shared experience trumps staring into an iPhone or iPad screen. When I’m alone, I generally stream because of the quality and convenience. No debate that that’s superior. But for entertaining, in a social environment, spinning those expensive, glossy black discs is something special… Just one old guys opinion…

i like vinyl for mostly one reason. pick one you like. and play it. theres no convenient forward or bounce setting. you have to get up and do it. or listen to the whole side. and i think thats a lost personal acheivement people have. vinyl takes patience to finish it or else you gotta get another ready and be deejaying through the day bouncing song to song on each record. i think this is very cool.

 

[antcollinet]

Do you run:

TT -> phono stage -> waxwing -> preamp -> amp

Or

TT -> waxwing -> preamp -> amp

The difference being keeping your analog phono stage in the chain with the Waxwing. If so, don’t you risk doubling up the gain (clipping)? Or can that be controlled in the Waxwing app? What about RIAA? Eager to get my hands on mine… Thanks much.

Edit: I’m asking as a reviewer on Head-Fi.Org stated his chain included both an analog phono stage and a waxwing.

You can set the waxwing to unity gain, and turn off the RIIA.

Not much point though. The waxwing has a very good preamp stage, and the RIAA is done digitally - as such probably much more accurate than any analogue implementation. Simply sell your existing phone stage.