Yep. Sounds all sciency and shite.
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News flash: First " new fundamental technology in audio since the 1970's"
- Thread starter JustJones
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I like Yamaha CinemaDSP so it’s not as bad as you think. When I had my Yamaha in my primary system, I always had the reverb on for movies but for music, I didn’t like it. The difference is that Yamaha isn’t random reverb and it does carefully make it feel like you are in a movie theater. You feel like you are in a bigger room without losing detail and clarity.
The real issue that the Daniel Hertz products are sold as an extreme price point.
I think it could sound good, but philosophically I don't want any extra "mixing and mastering" done outside of the studio, at least on music.
The price point is pretty wild, too. I can get you all the reverb you could ever want, plus all the EQ you could ever want, for $200, not $200K...
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
Exactly. Yamaha's DSP was light years ahead of anyone else in the game when they brought it to market way back in 1985. It caused a scramble with the other big manufacturers as they struggled to catch up, each bringing something similar to the market.
I think HiFi aficionados really didn't have any idea what they had achieved and how incredible the technology was. Then it all got lumped into Cinema DSP and forgotten as the home theatre craze buried all the ground-breaking work they had done.
People who think it's just a bit of reverb... LOL.
mhardy6647
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I saw it posted on the Polk forums
Made me think of prepared piano -- but maybe unprepared piano would be a more apt description.
radix
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Obviously, the thermal noise over the sampling bandwidth has to be greater than the Planck constant: 10log10(kTB) [J-Hz] / (B [Hz] * sampling rate [Hz]) > 6.63E-34 [J/Hz]. It's so clear from the dimensional analysis. For the clearly necessary 100 kHz bandwidth of audio at STP, we should be striving for sampling rates around 2.9E-21/(1E+5 * SR) > 6.63E-34 => SR about 4.3E+17 Hz. ADC and DAC manufacturers clearly have a long way to go.
+1. There are a few people on AVSForum who like the Cx-A5100 and have moved onto 16 ch processors but would happily go for a new generation Yamaha processor if released
Also to be clear, I *always* found CinemaDSP to be better or neutral, for movies.
For music, it wasn’t *always* better but it definitely enhanced the sound *often* in the same way Auro3D or DPL-II isn’t always better for music but *often* is. What was also interesting is when you mix DPL2 with Cinema DSP for music.
“People” have always criticized YPAO RSC for being an outdated room correction compared to Dirac or Audysey, but the reality is that it tried to work primarily below the transition frequency so it LOOKED like it did very little but was more consistent with what “we know now” in the ASR era about being judicious in correction.
A revival of the old canard about how a "stair-step" digital waveform can't be expected to reproduce beautiful, "continuous" analog sound. Trotted out only a week or so after Qobuz did the same thing.
A turntable is a mechanical short duration reverb generator. If you’re trying to make a digital file sound more like LP playback, some judicious EQ and reverb might get close and make some folks think it’s pretty magical.
I have a upper echelon Yamaha receiver. I also do some fooling around with DAW’s. Seems to me that Cinema DSP is a multi channel convolution reverb. More complex than a simple stereo reverb, but still a reverb. The ML patent seems to be describing something simpler. BTW, I kind of like the Yamaha reverb on some music using the small spaces (sometimes edited to be even smaller)
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from the patent:
3. applying the reverberation setting includes applying a reverberation time period in a range from 0.05 to 0.5 seconds, and an HF damping setting in a range of from 6 to 8 kHz.
4. applying the reverberation setting includes applying a dry reverberation setting in a range from −0.1 to −2.0 dB, and a wet reverberation setting in a range from −99.9 to −97.9 dB.
5. applying the equalization setting includes applying a width of EQ or Q setting at about −0.26, a 40 Hz frequency setting at about +0.2 dB, a 2 kHz frequency setting at about −0.2 dB, and a 12 kHz frequency setting at about +0.2 dB.
6. applying the reverberation setting includes applying a pre-delay setting in a range from 40 to 120 ms, a delay time setting is in a range from 0.01 to 0.99 seconds, a direct signal to early signal reference ratio in a range from 20 to 80% and a tail decay in a range from 0.10 to 2.0%.
7. applying the reverberation setting includes a wet to dry signal ratio in a range from 0 to 35%, a damping frequency low setting in a range from 50 to 500 Hz, a damping frequency high setting in a range from 5000 to 14,000 Hz, a filter center frequency in a range from 8000 to 16,000 Hz and a filter gain in a range from −4 to −25 dBFS.
8. applying the equalization setting includes a gain setting in a range from 0.1 to 1 dB, a center frequency setting in a range from 4000 to 6000 Hz and a quality factor setting in a range from 0.10 to 1.0 Q.
9. applying the reverberation setting includes an early reference level in a range from −30.0 to 0 dBFS, a tail level in a range from −25.0 to 0 dBFS, a wet to dry signal ratio in a range from 0.1 to 20%, a damping frequency low setting in a range from 50 to 500 Hz, a damping frequency high setting in a range from 5000 to 14,000 Hz, a filter center frequency in a range from 80 to 300 Hz, and a filter gain in a range from −2 to −2 dBFS.
10. applying the equalization setting includes a gain setting in a range from 0.1 to 1 dB, a center frequency setting in a range from 4000 to 6000 Hz and a quality factor setting in a range from 0.10 to 1.0 Q.
Thats it... just some dsp functions
3. applying the reverberation setting includes applying a reverberation time period in a range from 0.05 to 0.5 seconds, and an HF damping setting in a range of from 6 to 8 kHz.
4. applying the reverberation setting includes applying a dry reverberation setting in a range from −0.1 to −2.0 dB, and a wet reverberation setting in a range from −99.9 to −97.9 dB.
5. applying the equalization setting includes applying a width of EQ or Q setting at about −0.26, a 40 Hz frequency setting at about +0.2 dB, a 2 kHz frequency setting at about −0.2 dB, and a 12 kHz frequency setting at about +0.2 dB.
6. applying the reverberation setting includes applying a pre-delay setting in a range from 40 to 120 ms, a delay time setting is in a range from 0.01 to 0.99 seconds, a direct signal to early signal reference ratio in a range from 20 to 80% and a tail decay in a range from 0.10 to 2.0%.
7. applying the reverberation setting includes a wet to dry signal ratio in a range from 0 to 35%, a damping frequency low setting in a range from 50 to 500 Hz, a damping frequency high setting in a range from 5000 to 14,000 Hz, a filter center frequency in a range from 8000 to 16,000 Hz and a filter gain in a range from −4 to −25 dBFS.
8. applying the equalization setting includes a gain setting in a range from 0.1 to 1 dB, a center frequency setting in a range from 4000 to 6000 Hz and a quality factor setting in a range from 0.10 to 1.0 Q.
9. applying the reverberation setting includes an early reference level in a range from −30.0 to 0 dBFS, a tail level in a range from −25.0 to 0 dBFS, a wet to dry signal ratio in a range from 0.1 to 20%, a damping frequency low setting in a range from 50 to 500 Hz, a damping frequency high setting in a range from 5000 to 14,000 Hz, a filter center frequency in a range from 80 to 300 Hz, and a filter gain in a range from −2 to −2 dBFS.
10. applying the equalization setting includes a gain setting in a range from 0.1 to 1 dB, a center frequency setting in a range from 4000 to 6000 Hz and a quality factor setting in a range from 0.10 to 1.0 Q.
Thats it... just some dsp functions
Interesting, if you knew which reverb algorithm they were using this would be trivial to set up in EQAPO or any DAW. The patent I saw was full of typos (they probably hired a terrible attorney to work on this travesty)- "early reference level" is probably supposed to be "early reflection level".
The ranges for some of these settings are so wide that it's impossible to know what's actually in place in the system without doing hands-on tests though. Factors of 10 all over the place. And point 4 and 7 contradict each other directly...
