Newb's experiences with Minidsp Flex Dirac Live

[Jochie]

Hello all,

From a nearly complete novice, I'm trying to educate myself on the MiniDSP Flex Balanced w/ Dirac Live + REW. As of now I haven't entirely figured out how to create crossfilters & PEQ's in REW and import them into the Flex, to integrate my sub well. I've had a couple of nights of fiddling with Dirac, and finally did a decent recording with a nice sounding curve, cut off at 500Hz. Because of my couch near the rear wall (as far as I am able to get permission), my initial recordings gave Dirac an unappetizing sound.

The "good" result came from measuring with a tape measure, couch pushed against the wall, and Umik-1 slightly in front of my MLP. Result: the sound is more focused, less bloated, less smeared, voices and instruments have more space around them, BUT when toggled off, there is a more solid center image. And with Dirac on, it also sounds a little constraint in some way. Or maybe too tight. It sort of gives a hint of the feeling your ears get when speakers are out of phase - a bit uncomfortable. That effect disappears when I toggle Dirac off. But all the other nice effects go with it.

- The room is 380 cm (12,5 feet) from back wall to front wall, and I use 350 cm (11,5 feet) side to side. Of to the left is open floor plan.
- Did I still mess something up, or could this be a preference thing, or brain adjusting thing?
- Should I first start a clean slate, learn how to integrate the sub with the mains using REW and import crossoversettings and PEQ into Flex? And thén use Dirac over that result?
- If so do you have a step by step guide using the latest version of REW? Thanks so much in advanced.

 

[Keith_W]

Most MiniDSP users use Dirac to design the filters and REW to confirm the results. You paid a lot of money for your Dirac license, so you should expect Dirac to do what it was designed to do - i.e. make filters.

The only reason to use REW to make filters is if you think you can do a better job than Dirac. You can find step-by-step instructions here on MiniDSP's website.

The number 1 reason for bad sound after DSP is inappropriate correction, especially attempting correction of high frequencies without a quasi-anechoic measurement. If you think it sounds worse after DSP, you are probably correct. If it's properly done, it should sound noticeably better.

 

[middlemarch]

Your point three is the correct answer. You're on your own to time align the sub with your main speakers and determine your crossover frequency, then do some amount of EQ on the subs, I really don't know how effective Dirac Live alone is in terms of EQ of your bass. You have the correct idea with having the curtain at 500Hz, except you may want to go even lower, like 250hz, to see if that helps with your sound.

I also began years ago with a miniDSP DDRC24, which led to years of learning to use REW, during which Dirac Live went in a drawer. If you have a real interest in learning all about the details of acoustics and measurements and EQ and are prepared to make a serious study of the subject, going the REW route is great. I'm glad I did.

But honestly, if your only interest is improving your sound by doing some room correction, in my opinion miniDSP is not the way to go. Buy yourself an AV receiver, like our favorite Denon, use the built in room EQ (at it's most basic the work of a couple of hours) and be done with it. That's my recommendation. Let your miniDSP purchase be a lesson learned and move on.

If you buy the right Denon, at least an x3800 or better, you can then take advantage of where Dirac finally comes into it's own, in the form of ART. But you can do all this in stages.

It all depends on your objectives

 

[Keith_W]

But honestly, if your only interest is improving your sound by doing some room correction, in my opinion miniDSP is not the way to go. Buy yourself an AV receiver, like our favorite Denon, use the built in room EQ (at it's most basic the work of a couple of hours) and be done with it. That's my recommendation. Let your miniDSP purchase be a lesson learned and move on.

I disagree. You can get perfectly good DSP with a MiniDSP. Granted, you can't get ART ... but not everybody needs it. A Denon AVR sounds like an incredibly expensive way to go, not to mention he will be paying for a lot of redundant features if he is not using video. Also - the DSP on AVR's are locked down. No manual DSP design there. AVR's are great for some people, but for 2ch folk there is no good reason to go with an AVR when you could use a MiniDSP.

 

[RosalieTheDog]

Hello Jochie

I assume you have tried to follow the Minidsp 2.1 integration guides?

There is one with REW

2.1 Sub integration + REW

miniDSP is a leading manufacturer of Digital Audio Signal Processors for the HomeTheater, Hifi, headphone and Automotive market. Join our large community of Audiophiles, Engineers and DIYers using our innovative products.

www.minidsp.com

But they also have a guide using only Dirac measurements

2.1 Sub integration + Dirac

miniDSP is a leading manufacturer of Digital Audio Signal Processors for the HomeTheater, Hifi, headphone and Automotive market. Join our large community of Audiophiles, Engineers and DIYers using our innovative products.

www.minidsp.com

I think the 'REW' might be the better but more complicated route. Creekaudio also sells Minidsp and has some good guides. You might also look for YouTube resources on how to integrate a sub using REW.

It is best to spend some time on getting the sub integration more or less right before the Dirac live calibration.

 

[RosalieTheDog]

Most MiniDSP users use Dirac to design the filters and REW to confirm the results. You paid a lot of money for your Dirac license, so you should expect Dirac to do what it was designed to do - i.e. make filters.

The only reason to use REW to make filters is if you think you can do a better job than Dirac. You can find step-by-step instructions here on MiniDSP's website.

For 2.1 systems Minidsp recommends you use REW to generate PEQ to smooth out the crossover region before running Dirac measurements.

 

[middlemarch]

I disagree. You can get perfectly good DSP with a MiniDSP. Granted, you can't get ART ... but not everybody needs it. A Denon AVR sounds like an incredibly expensive way to go, not to mention he will be paying for a lot of redundant features if he is not using video. Also - the DSP on AVR's are locked down. No manual DSP design there. AVR's are great for some people, but for 2ch folk there is no good reason to go with an AVR when you could use a MiniDSP.

My point, and I think I stated it clearly, was that the approach depends entirely on his objectives. If his only interest is the sound of his system then there are much faster ways of achieving that. If his objective is to be a DSP wiz, then have at the whole REW, PEQ, etc, etc road. Depends on what you want to do with your life.

 

[Keith_W]

For 2.1 systems Minidsp recommends you use REW to generate PEQ to smooth out the crossover region before running Dirac measurements.

Unbelievable. USD$200 and it needs you to run REW first. I guess I learn something new every day!

 

[Mort]

For 2.1 systems Minidsp recommends you use REW to generate PEQ to smooth out the crossover region before running Dirac measurements.

I've never seen minidsp make this recommendation.

 

[Jochie]

Your point three is the correct answer. You're on your own to time align the sub with your main speakers and determine your crossover frequency, then do some amount of EQ on the subs, I really don't know how effective Dirac Live alone is in terms of EQ of your bass. You have the correct idea with having the curtain at 500Hz, except you may want to go even lower, like 250hz, to see if that helps with your sound.

I also began years ago with a miniDSP DDRC24, which led to years of learning to use REW, during which Dirac Live went in a drawer. If you have a real interest in learning all about the details of acoustics and measurements and EQ and are prepared to make a serious study of the subject, going the REW route is great. I'm glad I did.

But honestly, if your only interest is improving your sound by doing some room correction, in my opinion miniDSP is not the way to go. Buy yourself an AV receiver, like our favorite Denon, use the built in room EQ (at it's most basic the work of a couple of hours) and be done with it. That's my recommendation. Let your miniDSP purchase be a lesson learned and move on.

If you buy the right Denon, at least an x3800 or better, you can then take advantage of where Dirac finally comes into it's own, in the form of ART. But you can do all this in stages.

It all depends on your objectives

Thanks for the reply, I am committed to figuring out this device and REW so I won't be buying an AVR for my 2.1 setup. I already got a way better sound from the Flex by tuning the active crossover by ear than I did using the passive lowpass / highpass filters on the SVS PB2000, so I am already happy with the purchase. And I am willing to study up, experiment and doing the work. I think the sound with Dirac is in many ways already better than without.

I just found some e-books on this forum about REW for absolute beginners, I'm gonna start with those. I'll be posting some measurements in a couple of days when I am confident I didn't make any rookie mistakes, to ask for input from you all.

 

[Jochie]

I've never seen minidsp make this recommendation.

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/rew/rew-autoeq-step-by-step Maybe he means this? I don't have auto-EQ (costs 30 bucks) and I refuse because I want to learn it myself. But I need to start at the very beginning.

 

[chilort]

I'm nearly ready to sell my minidsp SHD. The streaming function is garbage (ended up getting a dedicated streamer that didn't constantly lock up) and I can make better filters on my own using REW. Maybe I shouldn't post this though...

The use of DIRAC did not in, any way, improve the sound. I tried multiple ways and just went back to REW.

 

[Mort]

I'm nearly ready to sell my minidsp SHD. The streaming function is garbage (ended up getting a dedicated streamer that didn't constantly lock up) and I can make better filters on my own using REW. Maybe I shouldn't post this though...

The use of DIRAC did not in, any way, improve the sound. I tried multiple ways and just went back to REW.

Volumio steamer is garbage but most use Spotify/tidal/qobuzz connect.

It's one thing to get better results with rew. It's another to say DIRAC 'did nothing'. User error or bias.

 

[janbth]

I've never seen minidsp make this recommendation.

The recommended procedure, as described in 2.1 Sub integration + Dirac, is to integrate the sub before running the full Dirac Live calibration. This includes setting the right level and delay. This step can be done by running just a single-point measurement with Dirac, and doesn't necessarily need REW. It's in the guide.

MiniDSP has to integrate the sub before calibrating with Dirac beause of the way Dirac is implemented in the MiniDSP. Dirac only sees two channels, L and R, and not the subwoofer independently.

 

[Mort]

That's very different than what was said, which is that REW was used first to generate peq to smooth out the frequency response.

 

[chilort]

Volumio steamer is garbage but most use Spotify/tidal/qobuzz connect.

It's one thing to get better results with rew. It's another to say DIRAC 'did nothing'. User error or bias.

I didn't say it "did nothing."

 

[Mort]

I didn't say it "did nothing."

You said it improved nothing which is frankly hard to believe.

 

[RosalieTheDog]

That's very different than what was said, which is that REW was used first to generate peq to smooth out the frequency response.

I am curious why you are so argumentative about this. I was referring to this step in the Minidsp manual that I cited. Do you find 'smooth out' an incorrect or 'very different' paraphrase of 'flatten'?

"Use the REW Auto-EQ feature to flatten the subwoofer response around the crossover region. For information on how to do this, see the app note Auto EQ with Room EQ Wizard. Be sure to choose the correct Equalizer option (and therefore sample rate) for your processor.

There is no need to get the response exactly flat, as an additional step later will perform additional correction. The purpose here is just to get a clean crossover to the speakers."
https://www.minidsp.com/applications/subwoofer-tuning/sub-integration-rew#eq-sub

I think the OP was precisely referring to this step which is why I brought it up.

 

[Mort]

I'm merely correcting misinformation for the good of the community. If you find offense with that, you can ignore me.

 

[chilort]

You said it improved nothing which is frankly hard to believe.

It isn't hard to believe. You can find many people on just ASR alone who have been dissatisfied for a wide range of reasons. Search for "Dirac sounds bad." There's tons of good advice in those threads for people who want to try to twist Dirac into working. It isn't an easy button and people who can roll their own, like me, may learn it isn't an easy button the hard way