Newbie upgrade

[Hannibal]

Hello all and thanks for being here.
I'm reading this forum since a while and finally I decided to register and ask you guys what to do next.

Context.
I'm an owner of a pair of Canton LE190 (Specs) that I bought in the early '00 with my first serious salary, together with a Marantz Sr4500 AV receiver (Specs). I was young.
Things has changed in the meantime, I'm a father of two, other 3 people live in my house so time for good listening has significantly reduced in the last 10 years.
Anyway, kids have grown up a little and I was thinking time has come for an upgrade/update.
My sistem is located in a room of ~8x5 meters, 2.8m ceiling. I bought some Bluesound pieces for an easy-peasy multiroom setup that my wife likes so much. She, and the kids, listen Spotify, I listen Tidal, my collection of flac on my home server and my rega planar one. No CD. The AV receiver is obviously tight to the TV digitally. The current setup is actually a 3.0 one with the Canton for main channels and an additional cheap central because she argued about the movie vocals. The AV receiver is accompanied by a Node 2i as streamer.

Willings.
I don't really care anymore about AV. Finding place for 5ch, not to mention 7ch are a kimera in my family home.
I like to listen to basically all kind of music (but trap), and in the few occasions I can enjoy my system, I like to listen decently loud.
My current setup seems fine for low to mid pressure levels but if I crank the volume knob up, things get messy. I'm definitely a newbie so it's even hard to me to understand if what is going nuts is the amplifier or the loudspeakers, still something is not acting as I would like to.

Questions.
Where should I start from? I believe my AV receiver is the guilty and I was dreaming about the yet-to-come Nad C399 that would permit me to get rid of the node 2i, but I'm definitely open to suggestions.
As a side note, I think my LE190, while being light years away from a very decent pair of speakers, at least they provide some good extension in the bass range that allows me to not include a subwoofer. This is more than good to me, swallowing another piece of audio for my family could put my upgrade path in serious danger.

Thanks for any help you could provide me.

 

[Killingbeans]

My current setup seems fine for low to mid pressure levels but if I crank the volume knob up, things get messy. I'm definitely a newbie so it's even hard to me to understand if what is going nuts is the amplifier or the loudspeakers, still something is not acting as I would like to.

Can you describe the "messiness" a bit more?

Where should I start from?

I'm a noob myself, but I'd grab these two as the first thing:

UMIK-1

The UMIK-1 is an omni-directional USB measurement calibrated microphone providing Plug & Play acoustic measurement. From speaker & room acoustic measurement to recording, this microphone provides low noise and accurate results you can rely on.

www.minidsp.com

REW room acoustics and audio device measurement and analysis software

REW is free software for room acoustic measurement, loudspeaker measurement and audio device measurement and analysis

www.roomeqwizard.com

It might neither be the amp nor the speakers that's causing trouble, but just the room and the speaker's position in it.

 

[antcollinet]

Tricky.

Without having experience, or measurements of the specific kit you have it is difficult to say what you should do. The speakers certainly look beefy enough, but looks don't determine performance.

Your "need" to upgrade only seems to be for high volume listening. The problem here could be your amp clipping (running out of voltage at high peaks), or it could be room modes/resonances. Or it could be your speakers misbehaving, though I think that is less likely.

How close are your speakers to the back wall? One thing you could experiment is positioning - try moving them at least 1m away from the wall - or further if possible. Even if you can't leave them there for "family" reasons it is usefull as an experiment to see if the proximity to the wall is causing bass boom type problems.

The other thing you could consider is trying some room measurement. A suitable mike (umik1) can be had for around $£100, and together with free REW software and a little learning you could get a lot of info about how your system is performing. You may just need to be looking at room equalisation - which can be done in software as a trial.

Another option is to try to get a home trial (or borrow) a much higher power amp - to eliminate the potential clipping issues. I'd be looking at some sort of class D amp for this, especially hypex or purify based.

In any case you really need to try to find out what is not working at higher volumes before buying anything - else you are in for an expensive trial and error process.

 

[Hannibal]

Thank you! Yes, I need to experiment and, maybe, grab a good mic and see what it says.

Regarding the messiness, feeling is that the low frequencies get distorted on higher volumes. Hard to me to explain but something like a low frequency that usually sounds like a drum, for example, then become a broken drum. It's not low as it should. Sorry for my poor explanation. My crappy hears noticed most of the mess on low frequency, I'm not that good at recognising problems at other bands. But I can improve and listen more carefully.

I made some tests (Tests) and I can hear correctly even fairly low frequencies, slightly below ~30hz but I did them at mid volume levels, afraid of frying something. Not sure if this is of any interest.

The loudspeakers are some 30-50cm from the front wall. I can pulling them out.

Again, thank you!

 

[antcollinet]

That bass problem could well be room modes/resonances.

 

[Jim Matthews]

I'm going out on a limb to suggest your inefficient 3 ways (89 dB/watt ) could dissipate more power than your AV receiver will competently deliver. The current crop of Purifi amps will get you the volume levels you're after.

Trade out the surround speakers for a competent sub, perhaps?

 

[Slayer]

Thank you! Yes, I need to experiment and, maybe, grab a good mic and see what it says.

Regarding the messiness, feeling is that the low frequencies get distorted on higher volumes. Hard to me to explain but something like a low frequency that usually sounds like a drum, for example, then become a broken drum. It's not low as it should. Sorry for my poor explanation. My crappy hears noticed most of the mess on low frequency, I'm not that good at recognising problems at other bands. But I can improve and listen more carefully.

I made some tests (Tests) and I can hear correctly even fairly low frequencies, slightly below ~30hz but I did them at mid volume levels, afraid of frying something. Not sure if this is of any interest.

The loudspeakers are some 30-50cm from the front wall. I can pulling them out.

Again, thank you!

Don't take offense, but I have heard these speakers before at a friends. Needless to say he did not keep them.
In my opinion they really need to be crossed over around 50-60hz and need a sub with them.
I know what you're trying to get across with the messiness comment. They don't seem like a fast speaker, a little slow and don't like to be played loud. They don't seem like they like or can handle a lot power either. I suspect the drivers just can't handle much power. For low level and maybe medium listening they seem ok, but I don't think you will ever get the enjoyment of distortion free loud levels you are after.
But adding a sub and crossing the Canton's over properly will help.
In the end, I hate to say it, but I think in the long run, you may looking for different mains if you like playing loud and clean.
Take my opinion with a grain of salt, it's just what i experienced.YMMV

 

[Hannibal]

No offence at all! I'm writing in the newbie section asking for help so how could I?
Okay, assuming I will dig into the rabbit hole and grab a mic and all what I may need (already read part 1 and 2 of the Room measurement tutorial), I'm missing the part on how to connect the laptop to the amplifier. I don't have an USB input on any of my sources. Maybe I could use Bluetooth but...

 

[antcollinet]

No offence at all! I'm writing in the newbie section asking for help so how could I?
Okay, assuming I will dig into the rabbit hole and grab a mic and all what I may need (already read part 1 and 2 of the Room measurement tutorial), I'm missing the part on how to connect the laptop to the amplifier. I don't have an USB input on any of my sources. Maybe I could use Bluetooth but...

Analogue out from the laptop direct to the amp is fine. Line out or headphone out at a pinch.

 

[Hannibal]

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Thanks again.
Umik is available here, just wondering if anyone had any experience with a dayton audio iMM-6 + Audio Tool on Android. It would be cheaper of course but I'm wondering if I could find some support during the usage.