Newbie, back to HiFi after 40 years

[Chota]

He out there,

I am mid 50 and bought my first HiFi Setup or at least what I mean could be it.
Because I can´t find any help in some other forums I try it here. (sorry for bad description I am not native english)

Everyone is talking about how the hardware sounds.

_This DAC sounds like... has a big open stage,
_This AMP has warm sound, or neutral
_This speakers sound british, best with british sounding AMPs, chrystal clear

Hope you understand what I mean.

The only thing what "sounds" are my speakers.

I read a ton of threads describing in adjectivs some never heard how a piece sound. All in comon, the higher the price the better it sounds and more eloquent are the adjectives used to describe the sound.

WHAT make good sound hifi setup.
HOW to listen to it and CPMPARE different hardware?

As example:
I have an old Marantz PM68 nothing special but it do its job.
Now we have the hype about Fosi V3 (and the other amps). Ok it cost not really much, less then my used Marantz.
I listen one week now with both in change to my favourite music.

I can´t hear any difference.!
I used files from Spotify to Amazon Music Ultra, also MQA, up to DSD512.

Is there a "manual" a "tutorial" how to objectiv listen to your hifi setup, compare to others and make a decision`?

I want to upgrade maybe from a WiiM plus por to other "better" sounding streamer/dac, maybe also change the amp to something better?

I am not one who want to have the highest priced hifi setup or the "best of the best" as I bevlieve that this is not neccessary

greetings from good old Germay

 

[Grotti]

Welcome at ASR. If you stay here a little bit longer you will find out, that amplifiers don't have a sound signature, as long they measure transparent without reaching the level of audible threshold and are used within their power limits. So it is perfectly ok, that you don't hear a difference between your Marantz and the Fosi.

Same goes for the streamer: your Wiim plus was measured here ( just look up the review).

Don't get disturbed by all the audiofoolery and the use of buzzword BS out there and keep on searching this forum: you might learn a lot!

 

[Doodski]

Everyone is talking about how the hardware sounds.

_This DAC sounds like... has a big open stage,
_This AMP has warm sound, or neutral
_This speakers sound british, best with british sounding AMPs, chrystal clear

I read a ton of threads describing in adjectivs some never heard how a piece sound. All in comon, the higher the price the better it sounds and more eloquent are the adjectives used to describe the sound.

It's all gobbledygook fantasy talk when applied to amps, CD players and DACs.

As example:
I have an old Marantz PM68 nothing special but it do its job.
Now we have the hype about Fosi V3 (and the other amps). Ok it cost not really much, less then my used Marantz.
I listen one week now with both in change to my favourite music.

I can´t hear any difference.!

That is about right on the money. The difference between quality amps is very very small so as to be inaudible as long as the amp is properly rated for the speaker impedance.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Is there a "manual" a "tutorial" how to objectiv listen to your hifi setup, compare to others and make a decision`?

Hello and welcome to ASR

You face the challenge we've all faced over the years: "is my gear good, can I get better?". For decades, we either had to trust reviewers and magazines because objective measurements were rare. A full, high quality test set costs tens of thousands of Euros and requires skill and knowledge to operate, so we couldn't test our gear to check for ourselves. BUT Amir has changed the audio world through his measurements using top-grade test equipment. What is more, for less than a thousand Euros, sometimes less than 500 Euros we can now run tests ourselves that exceed our hearing!

You asked if there is a "manual" to objectively listen. There are three things you must do:
1) don't operate equipment outside its design limits (a 10W power amplifier driving difficult speakers will be stressed and is likely to sound different than a high quality 400W amplifier).
2) match levels to within 0.1V
3) don't peek at the gear or wiring when you are making comparisons and don't let anyone helping you select gear peek either.

 

[Waxx]

What you got from electronics is often good enough. That Marantz was for it's time a very low noise design, and i'm quiet sure it's to today's standards still quiet good. The Wiim is also good enough to not have to upgrade anymore. There are more lower noise designs for both, but certainly the Wiim is already beyond the resolution of our ears when used within their limits.

Where upgrading does matter is speakers and acoustics (if possible). you could also add room correction trough dsp (can be a game changer). But not amps or dacs. Speakers are much more noisier than modern electronics (even from the 90's), and acoustics of your room will probally have the biggest influence, but are also the hardest to deal with. Room correction software (in a dsp or on your computer) can do a lot (not all) altough.

And a lot of sites have mostly very subjective judgings, largely also driven by bias or sponsoring. Learn how to read measurment graphs like used here and on some other sites (Audioholics, Erin's audio corner) that are done right and objective and you will see the marketing talk on other sites soon.

That does not mean you can't appreciate coloured gear. I do, and many do. But even that can be put in specs that you can measure. But if you don't know, go for objective clean sound, that is the largest chance to success. And your amp or dac will be not the limiting factor i think, it's your speakers and acoustics that are that.

 

[Joe Smith]

Agree with above, the main elements that will make a difference for you are your speakers and your room & speaker placement. Read some of the info here re optimal speaker positioning and the elements of a good listening environment, see if there are any simple changes you could make that would be worth trying.

A speaker upgrade is usually worth considering, with whatever you choose having a good match to the amplifier's power.

You didn't mention what speakers you are currently using?

I use a mix of vintage and newer speakers, nothing high priced, all bookshelves and two-way units.

Use of a sub or two and calibrated DSP is avowed by many here - personally not for me, but I am sure it does work well when executed properly. (I do use Equalizer APO now to slightly tweak the output from my computer to the DAC to adjust for speakers in my main workroom system, or to my headphone amp for specific headphones.)

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, and welcome
There's nothing at all wrong with your Marantz, and the WiiM Pro is a great streamer with a 'good enough' DAC. That's a good base.

As you already know from listening to the Fosi amp, the electronics don't really make much difference.
Be careful that you don't read too much from sites that don't provide any evidence - it's easy to fool yourself and start thinking otherwise.

As said before, just don't stress your amplifier - it will sound bad if you do, and probably be far too loud - and put your money towards nice speakers

 

[Mikig]

The only advice I can give is:

a) about the room and the position of the speakers. Take care of them, study them a bit, go and read. Often everything is ruined by badly placed speakers. If you can't help but find the right place and the right space, try to use EQ or DSP to fix it.

B) The electronics: the modern ones are practically all good, the vintage ones not always, but unless a device is broken you won't have big problems. As already said by others, combine them in the right way, proportionate between amp and speakers for the size of the room, position and driving capacity of the amplifier.
So feel free to use your Marantz, it will be fine.

c) As for the cables, just check that they are right for the job they will have to do, with good connections, of the right length to avoid tangles and mess.

 

[Chota]

Thank you for the responses.

Further information you asked and I forgot:

I startet with speakers B&W 606 S3 testet them for 3 weeks, then I got some Wharfdale Diamond 12.2 for 1/4 price of the B&W and compared them.
I decided that the listen experience was not worth 4 times the price. and send back the B&W.

My room has the problem with bass reflex and some other problems I think. I can´t treat the room, the walls etc.
Therefor I need loudspeakers with good deep bass but not heavy so all was vibrating.
e.g. Heavy Cross by Gossip was not payable with the B&W when get a bit louder as normal.

When I bought the WiiM it hasnt the PEQ- room correction, that came later.

Then I got hands an dream speaker, Spendor BC 1 MK2 from a collector in absolut brand new conditions!
They have the bass reflex tube in front not the back of the speaker, that made a huge difference in my room.
A perfect choice. I could buy these because the offered Harbeth were over my budget.

With these speakers which are maybe not the very best, and they dont like playing very loud (have the wharfedales for that) I listen to my music fromt the 80s.
Start listening to Jazz again and Blues .

They sound fantastic, play supberb with my Dual CS 731q and the WiiM

After few days the WiiM got upgrade to PEQ- room correction.............

And the magic began: I wipped with my feet and suddenly I stood in the living room dancing!

Glad I have an old AMP so I can use tape monitor and with that I can use the PEQ from the WiiM with my WiiM, my Dual turntable and my Toppind headphone amp.

I couldnt be happier at the moment I think, I listen to music that fits the Spendors well, all other play via the little Wharfedales.

For the room and position.

I sit 2.3m from my speakers in tip of the stereo triangle. Tried different positions for my relax chair, the speakers, I think I have found the sweet spot with my setup.

Some say: go for the new Quad 33/303 the best fit for the Spendors. BUT they cost me a fortune, I´ll loose the tape monitor funtcion and so the PEQ.

That was the beginning of thinking that I look for other streamer/dac with room corrections possibility and other amp. On the other hand I like vintage used stuff and give them a second chance ( Oh I would like to buy a Marantz PM 84mk2, good price, but christmas holidays coming ^^, maybe I find next year another good offer).

@Joe Smith
I would like to know how to use APO (use it with my headphone and soundinterface on my computer) with my hifi setup or other EQ room correction possibilities.

 

[Joe Smith]

Here's the download link for Equalizer APO. I use the Peace graphic interface for ease of use, but you don't have to, you can import speaker/headphone settings directly into Equalizer APO.

Here's the Auto EQ site (not a download, just a standalone site) where you can find some existing headphone curve settings to copy and import!

It helps to see a frequency response graph for your speakers to know how to best adjust for them. I use some very modest settings for my Elac speakers, but I've been pleased with the difference...

Re the Splendors, here's an old Stereophile review of the original BC-1, which has comments that might point you towards some basic EQ adjustment for them. Not sure what was changed in the 2nd version, I'm not familiar with this brand/model...

Happy tweaking!

J

 

[kemmler3D]

I can´t hear any difference.!
I used files from Spotify to Amazon Music Ultra, also MQA, up to DSD512.

Welcome to ASR! You are in the right place. If you don't hear any difference, it only means your brain and ears are working properly, and not hearing things that don't exist.

I couldnt be happier at the moment I think, I listen to music that fits the Spendors well, all other play via the little Wharfedales.

If you are happy then don't worry about the equipment, you are in good shape already.

Is there a "manual" a "tutorial" how to objectiv listen to your hifi setup, compare to others and make a decision`?

Sort of. There is such a thing as critical listening training, you can learn to spot smaller differences in sound quality. This is something that professional testers or more likely mixing and mastering engineers would want, but it's not necessarily recommended for home listeners, since you will just tend to hear problems and get annoyed with them.

There is no training for hearing differences between DACs and amps the way audiophiles talk about, because most of the differences they hear are imaginary. Forget about all of that.

I want to upgrade maybe from a WiiM plus por to other "better" sounding streamer/dac, maybe also change the amp to something better?

If you don't hear any issues there is no reason for an upgrade. Most sound quality improvements that are talked about so much on forums and reviews are imaginary. Read some of Amir's objective reviews here and you will understand why. The differences in distortion and noise mostly exist between -80 and -100dB or so... i.e. 0.000001% and 0.00000001% - pretty hard to hear while music is playing.

I would like to know how to use APO (use it with my headphone and soundinterface on my computer) with my hifi setup or other EQ room correction possibilities.

I've done this with a small windows Mini PC (you can get refurbished Lenovo PCs for ~$120 on Amazon) and my DAC. However, the WiiM PEQ should do 90% of the job that you would do with EQAPO.

 

[JeremyFife]

Sounds like you have a lovely system that suits you. Enjoy it.

Perhaps you could change your WiiM for a WiiM Pro Plus (better analogue input) or the WiiM ultra (again for the analogue input with a built-in phono stage) - these would let you apply EQ to the turntable too.
Really, you don't need to though - that is perhaps just change for the sake of change.

 

[Chota]

Perhaps you could change your WiiM for a WiiM Pro Plus (better analogue input) or the WiiM ultra (again for the analogue input with a built-in phono stage) - these would let you apply EQ to the turntable too.

Oh sorry didnt mention that I have the WiiM Pro Plus?
And thank to WiiM forum I can use the EQ with all connected inputs, the turntable, the CD player, the WiiM itself. Also my external headphone amp

 

[JeremyFife]

Oh sorry didnt mention that I have the WiiM Pro Plus?
And thank to WiiM forum I can use the EQ with all connected inputs, the turntable, the CD player, the WiiM itself. Also my external headphone amp

Perfect

 

[KMM]

Welcome to the asylum. Have your hearing checked before you engage in discussing subtle differences in the upper frequency range. Saves nerves and money.............

 

[Chrispy]

Seems to me you have a solid approach and have learned to ignore product hype that is all-too typical today. Welcome aboard.

Don't know if you have seen this before, most of us have, https://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

 

[SSS]

Hi Chota, welcome to the show. At my audioset I use huge loudspeakers from T+A the T230 with very good bass response in my room.
Tried different old shool power amps Yamah M-85, Crown D-150 and have now the Crown DC-300. To me there is no sound difference between the amplifiers. Maybe when bass is driven hard the D-150 may not keep up. But then it is anyway too loud for me.
So, your are right, take what is sounding good for you. Most difference lies in the loudspeakers and the room influence.
Greeting from southern Germany (BW)

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Then I got hands an dream speaker, Spendor BC 1 MK2 from a collector in absolut brand new conditions!

Wow! I used to see these all the time in studios (not as mixing monitors, just for talkback and feeds into the recording areas). I always thought they were nice. They can't go loud, not can they play organ pipes or modern electronica, but they sound good with solo spoken and singing voice or acoustic instruments.

 

[Chota]

Wow! I used to see these all the time in studios (not as mixing monitors, just for talkback and feeds into the recording areas). I always thought they were nice. They can't go loud, not can they play organ pipes or modern electronica, but they sound good with solo spoken and singing voice or acoustic instruments.

True, the Spendors are special in its way.

They don´t like hard heavy metal, Dark Wave, Industrial with these bum bum bass.
In the moment you find your music fits the Spendors they are genius,
Dont forget the frequencies are not the best nor the efficiency, someone wrote in my german forum: efficiency like concrete wall ^^

Thats one of my problem as I like Dark Wave, Gothic etc too but my little Wharfedale are good enough for them.

The Spendors do what I buy them for: Make me smile, relax me while listen to great music having a good glas of vine and a big cigar (uhhh I dont smoke but you get it)

 

[Willem]

At the time I liked the BC1s, but I would be a bit concerned that they may have deteriorated - these are pretty old speakers. Anyway, if you miss deep bass and are troubled by their power handling, the simple solution is to add two (or more) subwoofers and high pass the BC1s.