• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

NEWBIE - Am I deaf ?

PenguinMusic

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 20, 2019
Messages
622
Likes
368
Hi guys,

For those following my posts, you probably know that I recently switched to headphone listening for several reasons...

So I decided to rip my all CD collection and to put it all together in a library with music I bought from reputed high quality sites.

I am now listening to music for some days, and I must that I was convinced that with today's technology, recordings should sound super gorgeous.

But after long listening sessions I find that the best sounding recordings are those that I have that were made between 1955 and 1985.
The 63 CD's made by Fritz Reiner with the Chicago Symphony for RCA are simply incredibly sounding.
The "Concierto de Aranjuez" with John Williams on guitar and Daniel Barenboim conducting is simply miraculous.
So is Mozart's Clarinet concerto or Ravel's conducted by Boulez in 1974...
Not even talking about the "Jazz at the pawnshop" (to me it is artistically just average... but sound is indeed impressive !) or Pink Floyd DSOTM.
Those were also made in 197x...

I am probably deaf or old fashioned... or just an addicted stupid "analog" dude...
And I admit it is probably a matter of tastes and totally subjective !

But really, I have yet to find as much superlative recordings made in 2000 or even in the last months that sound as vivid, profound... live as those :-(
Some sound really good... but almost all are missing that emotion I feel when listening to those "oldies but goldies" !

Of course, pure personal POV....
 

DuxServit

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 21, 2018
Messages
428
Likes
508
@PenguinMusic Agree with you, and has been reported elsewhere. Keep those old CD around, don’t get rid of them.

My understanding is that prior to the “loudness war” in the early 2000s digital music was better engineered. In the classical music space only a handful of label kept up this tradition.
 

digitalfrost

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 22, 2018
Messages
1,521
Likes
3,086
Location
Palatinate, Germany
Nah you're right. I didn't even listen to music until the 90s and I find the late 80s to early 90s are generally a sweet spot for CD quality. It doesn't have anything to do with how stuff was recorded. Thanks to my father, I have in my possesion an original AC/DC Back in Black CD from back when it was released (recorded in 1980). It specifically says on the back it was recorded analog and then converted to digital.

You can hear the tape hiss before the music starts, something they "fixed" with the later remasters. Even so, I think later releases in the 80s were often fully digital, at least I haven't heard any tape hiss and I think they sound amazing. The still have dynamics.

That said, you can find excellent modern recordings if you know where to look. Anything done by Steven Wilson/Porcupine Tree for example. Highest quality live sound I ever heard as well.

@PenguinMusic Agree with you, and has been reported elsewhere. Keep those old CD around, don’t get rid of them.

My understanding is that prior to the “loudness war” in the early 2000s digital music was better engineered. In the classical music space only a handful of label kept up this tradition.
I go out of my way to acquire original releases. It's fun to compare them to later versions, however any remaster done in the early 2000s is generally garbage and I don't bother with these. In the 2010s things got better.
 
OP
P

PenguinMusic

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 20, 2019
Messages
622
Likes
368
I go out of my way to acquire original releases. It's fun to compare them to later versions, however any remaster done in the early 2000s is generally garbage and I don't bother with these. In the 2010s things got better.

Hi,

That, I can't agree more !!!

I am a super fan of Pink Floyd "The Wall" (OK, I'm not that orignal !).
I have several editions of that CD : the original one, the "Remaster" that was made in 2010 or so and one "rare" 20th anniversary remaster "under the band's supervision" (whatever that means... but done in 1999 as the orignal was in 1979 I think).

That "remaster" is VASTLY superior to the original recording.
And the original recording is 3 LIGHT YEARS superior to the ****** 2010 remaster !
Unfortunately, today, if you go to stream sites, the only version offered is that catastrophical remaster !

I'm so glad I found that 20th anniversary edition... that I bought "used". And I do not think I ever saw another copy of that :-(

Regards.

(As I write this, I'm listening to Beethoven's 7th (my favourite) conduted by Fritz REINER with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and "remastered" to XRCD by JVC. That one is to put into the "miraculous recordings of all times" I think !).
 

Ivanovich

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 17, 2019
Messages
88
Likes
86
Location
Ellicott City, MD USA
It’s generally true for me too. Older recordings tended to have more dynamic range and more space in the music. It’s all loudness war now. My buddy is blues bassist and wanted his cd mastered “hot” and hates that some music has low volume. :facepalm: People don’t get that the volume knob should be at high noon not 2, before it’s getting too loud.

All that said, there are some out there. Find the labels that make good sounding recordings for the genres you like. I’m kind of fortunate in that the music I like, mainly jazz and blues, have many great artists that tend to be recorded well.

Listening to Muddy Waters - Folk Singer right now. omg! (DR15), and, yeah this old!
 

DuxServit

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 21, 2018
Messages
428
Likes
508
In the classical music area, Deutsche Gramophone (DGG) has been slowly remastering some of the well-known albums from the 1960s and 1970s into 24-bit/96 or 192, available on Blu-Ray and download. (Eg. Kempff; Fournier; Amadeus Quartet). These DGG remasters sound *so much* better compared even to the same CDs of the 1990s.

In Prog Rock, Steven Wilson has been reissuing lots of stuff (and new albums) on 24/96 and Blu-Ray.

Maybe Blu-Ray will become the new "physical medium" of the future for music...
 

majingotan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
1,511
Likes
1,781
Location
Laguna, Philippines
Same with RATM album. The one offered on streaming sites is the 20th anniversary which sounds inferior to the original RATM 1992 album
 

Daverz

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2019
Messages
1,294
Likes
1,451
In the classical music area, Deutsche Gramophone (DGG) has been slowly remastering some of the well-known albums from the 1960s and 1970s into 24-bit/96 or 192, available on Blu-Ray and download. (Eg. Kempff; Fournier; Amadeus Quartet). These DGG remasters sound *so much* better compared even to the same CDs of the 1990s.

In Prog Rock, Steven Wilson has been reissuing lots of stuff (and new albums) on 24/96 and Blu-Ray.

Maybe Blu-Ray will become the new "physical medium" of the future for music...

But there's no reason for the end product to be more than 16/44.1. As far as I can tell, the higher resolution is an excuse to charge more.

I should add that I'm not immune to this sort of marketing. I have to exert some willpower to select the standard resolution files, because, after all, all the numbers are higher for the other files!
 
Last edited:

DuxServit

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 21, 2018
Messages
428
Likes
508
But there's no reason for the end product to be more than 16/44.1. As far as I can tell, the higher resolution is an excuse to charge more.

I should add that I'm not immune to this sort of marketing. I have to exert some willpower to select the standard resolution files, because, after all, all the numbers are higher for the other files!

I don’t mind paying more if the provenance of the remaster is indicated, such as who did the remaster, which analog tapes, etc. However, this kind of info is often missing, even on HDtracks.
 
OP
P

PenguinMusic

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 20, 2019
Messages
622
Likes
368
Hi,

Not familiar with Steve Wilson, but I think he is the guy who operated for the "Jethro Tull : Aqualung" remix/remaster.
I do not know what is generally said abut that remix.
As far as I am concerned, I think that, as for many "remasters" or "remixes", it seems to be the quest for the best SOUND but that does not go hand in hand with MUSICALITY... I hope you'll know what I mean.
 

majingotan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
1,511
Likes
1,781
Location
Laguna, Philippines
it seems to be the quest for the best SOUND but that does not go hand in hand with MUSICALITY... I hope you'll know what I mean.

Shouldn't best sound mean best musicality subjectively?
 

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,459
Location
Australia
Musicality???? How is that judged?
confused.png
 
OP
P

PenguinMusic

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 20, 2019
Messages
622
Likes
368
Shouldn't best sound mean best musicality subjectively?

Hi,

Why ? Why did I posted this ? I should have known that this would start a debate :) [just in case the smiley isn't enough, please note that I am just kiddin']

Best sound should indeed mean best musicality IF you are an engineer.
If you are just a music listener, well, that is debatable...

Some people are astonished about how they can hear exactly what the 4th violin in the 2nd row is playin...
And I can understand that then they say "It's the best sound ever".
And it probably is...
But mind you : when I attend a concert and sit in the room, even if listening carefully, I cannot distinguish what that violin is playin :-(

I am not technician.
I see the curves in Armin measurements.
You can shoot me dead : I would be unable to say "That is a good device" when I see those.
So I cannot explain it in other words that : "I think the fact that I hear the violin is due to the remix".
But if I cannot hear in a concert hall, does that make it more enjoyable to listen to ?
Some will say "Absolutely" and I will not be the one telling them they are wrong.
I just think differently...

And you know what ?
I think that is super cool...
Because that is all what Audio and Hi-Fi is about : there are devices and recordings and musics fro all tastes.
And I hope it will last as it is for a LLLLLLOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGGGG time :)

Regards.
 

JJB70

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
2,905
Likes
6,148
Location
Singapore
Artistic qualities of music and whether or not you like it are not the same as technical audio quality or recordings. Some of my favourite recordings are old ones which are clearly not the most impressive in terms of recording quality, whilst some audiophile labels seemed to produce beautiful recordings of music I would never want to listen to.

This is the elephant in the room of audio. The late and much missed Peter Aczel was absolutely correct when he said that quality of recording was by far the most important parameter in terms of audio reproduction quality. An overly compressed mess, poor master, one with poor mic use etc will sound poor regardless of how good the audio system is. Conversely, a really great master of a well recorded performance will sound great on a very modest system.

I find it odd that so many audiophiles are fixated on equipment, which in many cases have no significant difference in SQ or seek measured values so far beyond audible levels as to be irrelevant in audible terms when the big problem for enjoying music is not the equipment but recordings. Get a great recording of music you love and you will love it if played on a sound bar or wireless speaker. You could listen to many recordings using that mola mola DAC or D&D speakers and they would still be crap.
 

majingotan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
1,511
Likes
1,781
Location
Laguna, Philippines
But mind you : when I attend a concert and sit in the room, even if listening carefully, I cannot distinguish what that violin is playin :-(

That’s because the soundstage is so huge, background noise is pretty high and the room acoustics are terrible. The fact that microphones are placed so close to the performers allow for a larger dynamic range between instruments thus when mixed, it’s much easier for us to hear that in our comfy couch
 

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,459
Location
Australia
LOL :)
I am pretty sure the word probably doesn't exist in english :-(
I just englishised a french word that is "musicalité"...

But you're being ironical aren't you ?

Nup. The word exists in English. I would like to know how it is benchmarked and compared across performances, recordings, equipment and listeners.
 
OP
P

PenguinMusic

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 20, 2019
Messages
622
Likes
368
That’s because the soundstage is so huge, background noise is pretty high and the room acoustics are terrible. The fact that microphones are placed so close to the performers allow for a larger dynamic range between instruments thus when mixed, it’s much easier for us to hear that in our comfy couch

Hi,

Perfectly agreed.

But does that make music more enjoyable to listen to because the "sound is better" ?
Or is music more enjoyable when you can "relive" the sensations you had in the concert hall ?

I am in the second category.
Like for movies : 4k or 8k on a TV is nice and detailed. Is that the "grain" you get when you go to the theater ? Or even in real life ?

But being in the second category doesn't mean I do not understand people in the first one.
Just 2 different POV.
Both legitimate... I think.
 
OP
P

PenguinMusic

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 20, 2019
Messages
622
Likes
368
Nup. The word exists in English. I would like to know how it is compared across recordings, equipment and listeners.
Oh...

That is highly subjective and as I said : I find it super cool that it is subjective.

Me, I would describe "musicality" as the ability to feel the music with your belly ; to enjoy ot with your heard rather than your brain.

Here's an example.
Wihelm Furtwangler conducted a Beethoven's 9th for a high III Reich representative's birthday in Berlin (don't think it was Hitler himself, but Goering probably).

The recording is awful : full of noises, craking, distant sound...
Still, you can feel how tensed the orchestra was ; how much that represented to the musicians in that particular time.
It's not really something I can describe. I can just "feel" it.

Beethoven's 7th by Ivan Fisher for Channel Classics.
The orchestra sometimes makes some small mistakes.
The sound is good, but nothing superbly recommended.
Still, you can feel the joy the orchestra (and probably the conductor) had in the project.
You just want to tap with your feet, even if it is classical :)

That is "musicality" to me... and that goes beyond the notes played and the quality of the sound.

Not sure I managed to say what it is to me in the right way :-(
 

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,459
Location
Australia
Oh...

That is highly subjective and as I said : I find it super cool that it is subjective.

Me, I would describe "musicality" as the ability to feel the music with your belly ; to enjoy ot with your heard rather than your brain.

Here's an example.
Wihelm Furtwangler conducted a Beethoven's 9th for a high III Reich representative's birthday in Berlin (don't think it was Hitler himself, but Goering probably).

The recording is awful : full of noises, craking, distant sound...
Still, you can feel how tensed the orchestra was ; how much that represented to the musicians in that particular time.
It's not really something I can describe. I can just "feel" it.

Beethoven's 7th by Ivan Fisher for Channel Classics.
The orchestra sometimes makes some small mistakes.
The sound is good, but nothing superbly recommended.
Still, you can feel the joy the orchestra (and probably the conductor) had in the project.
You just want to tap with your feet, even if it is classical :)

That is "musicality" to me... and that goes beyond the notes played and the quality of the sound.

Not sure I managed to say what it is to me in the right way :-(

Personal opinion/perception then. Not widely applicable.
 
Top Bottom