New version of Sennheiser HD 560S (!)

[solderdude]

The pads are clearly different and are at least part of the change in response.
My other 3 HD560S were both new ones and used ones, even after market pads all were within close tolerance. So seem to be the ones you have.
Both pads feel different. I mean the foam, in a similar way as the new pads for HD6** do compared to earlier pads which also measure slightly different.
These are original pads and have not been replaced by the previous owner, they measure different.
That looks like a product change to me. Regardless what the reason is for the change (costs, new supplier for pads or just the foam) or to purposely tune the headphone less bright because of the feedback they received from the field. Even before the HD560S was launched and got feedback from me Sennheiser already got feedback about the brightness so makes sense to do something about it and combine it with other changes that were planned.

The drivers were clearly made mid 2022, the ones you have obviously do not have the new headband nor cable, you would have spotted it.
The fact that you bought them in 2022 does not mean they were made in 2022.

What you could do, instead of questioning my findings, is buy a new one yourself and measure/test it.
Another thing you can do is remove the pads from your 3 copies, and the dust guards and see what drivers are in there, maybe there even is a production date on it and even post pictures of it. That would be really easy to do and add something real to the discussion instead of just your doubts and thoughts.

These are just my findings and experiments and they are just that. Just like you have your ideas about it. You are free to believe that it is just unit variation though.
In a few of my interactions with Jermo he often had to forward technical questions to others in the company. I know the product manager in the company I work for also comes to me (designer and engineer) of parts of our product for technical questions so is not that strange.
It could well be that Jermo is fully aware of the changes in headband and cable (they are obvious as well) and will certainly know Sennheiser sources pads elsewhere these days (or at least the foam) but may not know they deviate 1-2dB in the treble.

 

[Robbo99999]

The pads are clearly different and are at least part of the change in response.
My other 3 HD560S were both new ones and used ones, even after market pads all were within close tolerance. So seem to be the ones you have.
Both pads feel different. I mean the foam, in a similar way as the new pads for HD6** do compared to earlier pads which also measure slightly different.
These are original pads and have not been replaced by the previous owner, they measure different.
That looks like a product change to me. Regardless what the reason is for the change (costs, new supplier for pads or just the foam) or to purposely tune the headphone less bright because of the feedback they received from the field. Even before the HD560S was launched and got feedback from me Senheiser already got feedback about the brightness so makes sense to do something about it and combine it with other changes that were planned.

The drivers were clearly made mid 2022, the ones you have obviously do not have the new headband nor cable, you would have spotted it.
The fact that you bought them in 2022 does not mean they were made in 2022.

What you could do, instead of questioning my findings, is buy a new one yourself and measure/test it.
Another thing you can do is remove the pads from your 3 copies, and the dust guards and see what drivers are in there, maybe there even is a production date on it and even post pictures of it.

These are just my findings and experiments and they are just that. Just like you have your ideas about it. You are free to believe that it is just unit variation though.
In a few of my interactions with Jermo he often had to forward technical questions to others in the company. I know the product manager in the company I work for also comes to me (designer and engineer) of parts of our product for technical questions so is not that strange.
It could well be that Jermo is fully aware of the changes in headband and cable (they are obvious as well) and will certainly know Sennheiser sources pads elsewhere these days (or at least the foam) but may not know they deviate 1-2dB in the treble.

You could easily prove your point (product tolerances) by buying a new version (you already have 3, what's one more and you could always return it) and independently verify (or disprove) my findings and show that I happen to stumble on out outlier with matched pads and drivers.

You could so easily get confirmation by merely asking. I don't think it makes much sense for me to have to buy a new HD560s to measure in an attempt to confirm what you may have found. Just ask him for confirmation, it's simple.

As I said in one of my earlier posts, I think there's a good chance that these are real differences, but we don't know 100%, for the reasons I've been mentioning in my previous post & the earlier one. It's simple for you to ask your contact re what you have found, and it's not like they don't measure their headphones - of course they know if there's been an update that has shifted the frequency response. Getting conformation from your contact is indeed that - confirmation, and otherwise saves having to buy a number of new units of the headphone to measure.

 

[solderdude]

Just ask him for confirmation, it's simple.

I already did a while ago and got the answer I already posted.
Now you want me to ask again expecting a different answer from him given my findings and have him come back on his previous answer.

I fully agree that 'we' don't know with 100% certainty there has been a product change (other than the 2 obvious differences) based on one copy I have and reports from owners finding the same thing subjectively (differences in sound, mainly the brightness that changed).

Can you look at the drivers in your 3 copies ? This is non destructive and could be informative (but still not conclusive as you obviously have 3 early copies).
Interested in knowing if the dust guards are all the same (hold them against the light) and what is printed on the drivers.
These are obvious changes as are the pads.

 

[Robbo99999]

I already did a while ago and got the answer I already posted.
Now you want me to ask again expecting a different answer from him given my findings and have him come back on his previous answer.

I fully agree that 'we' don't know with 100% certainty there has been a product change (other than the 2 obvious differences) based on one copy I have and reports from owners finding the same thing subjectively (differences in sound, mainly the brightness that changed).

Can you look at the drivers in your 3 copies ? This is non destructive and could be informative (but still not conclusive as you obviously have 3 early copies).
Interested in knowing if the dust guards are all the same (hold them against the light) and what is printed on the drivers.
These are obvious changes as are the pads.

Well, it's possible he can say he's not been close to the project recently and that indeed the headphone has changed, if you ask him showing him your information - it's not really about "catching him out".

I might take a look at those drivers, dust guards sometime in the future, although I don't really want to as I can imagine the measurements being affected somewhat by taking apart & putting a headphone back together, perhaps depending on physical placement of the dust guard for one thing, which will invalidate the EQ's I've done for them somewhat (although it might be OK if it's easy to get the dust guard back into exactly the same position without crinkling, etc, but that will come down to how it's designed, I don't know). But, but, I may buy one of the newer HD560s anyway because if they do indeed have that decrease in treble then this will be useful for me in situations where I'm not using parametric EQ - at which point I will of course measure them on my miniDSP EARS and then I'll basically have measurements of 4 units of virtually unused HD560s to compare against (one of which will be the "new version" that has the shorter cable). If I do any of that, then I will of course post back here what I find. I still think it would be useful if you were to contact him though, as I said in my first paragraph it's not about "catching him out", he could just say he's not been close to the project recently, this would really be good cast iron confirmation.

 

[solderdude]

I don't really want to as I can imagine the measurements being affected somewhat by taking apart & putting a headphone back together, perhaps depending on physical placement of the dust guard for one thing,

Its not about that. It is about the numbers on the drivers and to visually inspect if the netting material changed before the 2022 revision. The netting does change the treble slightly but not audibly but that's not the point. Just to see if that material changed before the obvious changes.

The dust filter is held in place by 4 little tabs.
It is mounted on a translucent plastic shape and not fragile nor will it break or wrinkle. It simply stays in shape.
You can put a small screwdriver underneath the edge and gently lift it (on the opposite side of the internal hump) and you can lift it up and take it out.
To pop it back in you just put it in place and press with your nail near the tabs and it will click right back and sit secured again.
Only do this when you feel confident you can do this.

You can always sell 2 unused HD560S and just keep 2 of them (a new and old one)

When I happen to have a conversation with him about something else I will briefly mention my findings.
I suspect one of these days more measurebators might test a new one anyway. That is a matter of time.

 

[Robbo99999]

Its not about that. It is about the numbers on the drivers and to visually inspect if the netting material changed before the 2022 revision. The netting does change the treble slightly but not audibly but that's not the point. Just to see if that material changed before the obvious changes.

The dust filter is held in place by 4 little tabs.
It is mounted on a translucent plastic shape and not fragile nor will it break or wrinkle. It simply stays in shape.
You can put a small screwdriver underneath the edge and gently lift it (on the opposite side of the internal hump) and you can lift it up and take it out.
To pop it back in you just put it in place and press with your nail near the tabs and it will click right back and sit secured again.
Only do this when you feel confident you can do this.

You can always sell 2 unused HD560S and just keep 2 of them (a new and old one)

When I happen to have a conversation with him about something else I will briefly mention my findings.
I suspect one of these days more measurebators might test a new one anyway. That is a matter of time.

Thanks for tips on how best to take apart the HD560s, I've bookmarked it if I do it in the future. I might buy the newer version HD560s, I've put a price watch on it, so might grab it in a sale, or just buy it in the near future if I feel compelled to do so!

Yes, worthwhile to mention your findings, hopefully find a good excuse to talk to him in the near future!

(EDIT: I've used all of my HD560s units to some extent, two of them extensively, but I measured them all whilst either new or really quite new apart from one which was used a lot before measurement.)

 

[Drewcifer]

I already did a while ago and got the answer I already posted.
Now you want me to ask again expecting a different answer from him given my findings and have him come back on his previous answer.

I fully agree that 'we' don't know with 100% certainty there has been a product change (other than the 2 obvious differences) based on one copy I have and reports from owners finding the same thing subjectively (differences in sound, mainly the brightness that changed).

Can you look at the drivers in your 3 copies ? This is non destructive and could be informative (but still not conclusive as you obviously have 3 early copies).
Interested in knowing if the dust guards are all the same (hold them against the light) and what is printed on the drivers.
These are obvious changes as are the pads.

Hi, unfortunately for my use case (games) I got the newer revision and the changes match your findings. I can't measure them but by ear they are way too rolled off in the treble causing imaging to suffer, the first time I tested it was very confusing vs the tygr and all the reviews and measurements I had seen made no sense

I crudely EQ'ed 2.5db back in from 4k onward and the imaging comes back, I've got some pads coming to try but I'm just going to buy an older model.

If you look at my driver's one has a red outer and the other has a copper colour with slightly different dates June 22, mine have the same headband pad material the 1.8m 3.5mm cable and the same dust covers.

 

[solderdude]

Drivers are usually made in batches and then checked for response. It is possible that those 2 drivers (from different batches) matched well and why these 2 were selected.

At least part of the difference in treble might be resolved with the Poyatu pads. Chances are, when new pads are ordered from Sennheiser you might get a 'new' pad.

https://poyatu.aliexpress.com/store/1943057

https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005003441329188.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.376712ccuvTSWA&algo_pvid=76cf372f-97db-4fed-beca-7eac3592105d&algo_exp_id=76cf372f-97db-4fed-beca-7eac3592105d-0&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21EUR%2111.98%215.98%21%21%2112.37%21%21%4021038ed816960835165434984ec999%2112000025805419675%21sea%21NL%21164951647%21&curPageLogUid=I4Au3JwbWqVf

I can't guarantee that Poyatu pads from the past are the same as the current pads: Look for HD559 pads.

 

[Robbo99999]

Drivers are usually made in batches and then checked for response. It is possible that those 2 drivers (from different batches) matched well and why these 2 were selected.

At least part of the difference in treble might be resolved with the Poyatu pads. Chances are, when new pads are ordered from Sennheiser you might get a 'new' pad.

https://poyatu.aliexpress.com/store/1943057

https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005003441329188.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.376712ccuvTSWA&algo_pvid=76cf372f-97db-4fed-beca-7eac3592105d&algo_exp_id=76cf372f-97db-4fed-beca-7eac3592105d-0&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21EUR%2111.98%215.98%21%21%2112.37%21%21%4021038ed816960835165434984ec999%2112000025805419675%21sea%21NL%21164951647%21&curPageLogUid=I4Au3JwbWqVf

I can't guarantee that Poyatu pads from the past are the same as the current pads: Look for HD559 pads.

Good point, who knows what pads you get from Sennheiser now when you order replacements! On their website after going through the HD560s support pages in the UK then this is what you end up with, the HD559 pads supposedly:

This is the same as before the "new version" came about, so this would (on the surface) lead me to believe that you're getting the old style pads when you order these - however perhaps the HD559 pads have been updated recently too?? I find it a bit inconsistent to think that buyers of the "new version" of HD560s who then order replacement pads end up with the old style pad that would effectively change their HD560s back to the old version from a sonic perspective. This is why these kind of stealth updates to products with no name changes are so ridiculous and actually not a good approach from the company (Sennheiser). Ok, it very much looks like we have a new version of the HD560s now, but we don't know 100% for sure, so just for the record this post of mine is operating under the assumption that the new HD560s is sonically different.

EDIT: I'm just bloody pleased I've got a miniDSP EARS rig where I can measure the headphones so I know what I'm getting with any pad or stealth product revisions! (but of course people shouldn't have to do this to ensure what they're getting!)

 

[solderdude]

I just finished a review of the HD540 Reference and have a Reference II as well. The model just below the HD560 Ovation.
There are multiple versions of those (all called HD540 Reference) with 600 ohm, 300 ohm drivers, different types of pads even.
HD650 has undergone quite a few changes over the years and about a year ago there suddenly were new pads that differ.
Also AKG does seem to do this (silent changes).
It seems quite common to do silent revisions. The HD560S at least is optically different (cable and headband padding) but they should have mentioned the sound was 'improved' or 'updated' as well.

The problem is that the differences between the pads is not very visible but you can feel it when you squish the pads when you have them side by side and under flashlight you see a difference when I play with the Gamma slider (only look at the right side, the left side looks very different but this is due to the 'stroke' of the velour. The cloth seems to be the same or very similar between these pads too.
Maybe only the foam is different (which has an audible effect). Hopefully they are now longer lasting ... the new and older HD650 pads also look very similar in fabric.

 

[Robbo99999]

Not a fan of silent revisions that change the frequency response.

 

[solderdude]

Production cost reduction or non availability or difficulties with suppliers is usually the reason for this kind of thing.
Agreed that it is not desirable but sometimes unavoidable.

 

[Robbo99999]

I don't think large shifts in the frequency response are acceptable within that context, as I imagine it's more controllable than that, small barely perceptible shift then I'd go along with it.

 

[usern]

Have any of the hi-fi gear influencers made a piece about silent changes (this 560S or any other)? DMS was raving about release version of 560S, would it still be case of changed brightness?

 

[Robbo99999]

@solderdude , were there any distortion differences between "new version" and "old version"?

 

[Robbo99999]

Have any of the hi-fi gear influencers made a piece about silent changes (this 560S or any other)? DMS was raving about release version of 560S, would it still be case of changed brightness?

I don't know, but I'd be more inclined to stick with reviewers that measure their headphones too, so that they can show some comparative measurements along with their subjective impressions of any differences. I couldn't place much stock in a reviewer that simply listens to the headphone. How many reviewers measure their headphones (Amir / Resolve / Crinacle / don't know who else).

I used solderdude's graph showing the difference between "old version" & "new version", and then did a rough EQ by eye that would turn "old version" into "new version" and then applied it to one of my HD560s. I listened to it, it was OK, but full parametric EQ based on Harman was better - full parametric gave more bass impact & bass detail as well as a bit more overall clarity in the headphone. I didn't compare stock to "simulated new version" though - but from memory from previous times I've listened at stock then I'd say "simulated new version" lacks some clarity in comparison vs "old version"(stock).

EDIT: for those curious on the EQ I used to simulate "new version" then it is as follows (but note this was just done by rough eyeballing):
High Shelf 1200Hz, -1dB, Q0.707
High Shelf 3500Hz, -2dB, Q0.707
Low Shelf 70Hz, +2dB, Q0.707
So that roughly turns "old version" into "new version".

 

[solderdude]

@solderdude , were there any distortion differences between "new version" and "old version"?

distortion, phase, GD and CSD were similar/same.

 

[Phorize]

This probably explains why my new HD 560s had distorted mid bass with the soundid profile that I'm assuming is based on the measurements from an original set.

 

[solderdude]

I did not hear nor measure increased distortion nor any changes in mid bass.
Did notice a hair more bass extension but that can be a production tolerance thingy.
I forgot to measure the resonance frequency (I did intend to but forgot). When I have some time I might still do that.
Just less brightness in the new one and for music production that isn't a bad thing but less brightness can also be seen as more lower mids.
I did still hear a bit of a 5kHz peaking similar to HD58X which makes the new HD58X sound a little bit less 'smooth'.
When I have some time I will do a little more research. Gut feeling is only a mild correction around 5kHz is all that is really needed unless you are a die-hard Harman bass type of guy.

 

[Phorize]

I did not hear nor measure increased distortion nor any changes in mid bass.
Did notice a hair more bass extension but that can be a production tolerance thingy.
I forgot to measure the resonance frequency (I did intend to but forgot). When I have some time I might still do that.
Just less brightness in the new one and for music production that isn't a bad thing but less brightness can also be seen as more lower mids.
I did still hear a bit of a 5kHz peaking similar to HD58X which makes the new HD58X sound a little bit less 'smooth'.
When I have some time I will do a little more research. Gut feeling is only a mild correction around 5kHz is all that is really needed unless you are a die-hard Harman bass type of guy.

I should have said 'I perceived distortion', which could mean snything, or nothing. Thanks for taking measurements.