New Towers-BMR Philharmonic, Revel F208, or other?

[Speaker_tweaker]

I've never done his experiment, but I'm very skeptical. My nearfield measurement matched the simulation exactly.

I believe you. It's not like they're right next to each other. I do wonder why the discrepancy between your data and Audioholics?

Also, it probably (?) doesn't matter what the shape of the bass is. Toole says we should only care about F10 (as someone else mentioned above), and doesn't have any guidelines on the shape of the bass.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I believe you. It's not like they're right next to each other. I do wonder why the discrepancy between your data and Audioholics?

Also, it probably (?) doesn't matter what the shape of the bass is. Toole says we should only care about F10 (as someone else mentioned above), and doesn't have any guidelines on the shape of the bass.

This isn't my area of expertise and I don't want make anything like a definitive statement, but my experience has been that James' ground plane measurements usually don't match all that well with the factory specs. Here's his measurement of the big hog Perlisten S7t

 

[Everett T]

This isn't my area of expertise and I don't want make anything like a definitive statement, but my experience has been that James' ground plane measurements usually don't match all that well with the factory specs. Here's his measurement of the big hog Perlisten S7t

Honestly they're not that far off from your close mic measurements when looking at 100hz and below, above that it could be few things that effect them.

 

[Speaker_tweaker]

This isn't my area of expertise and I don't want make anything like a definitive statement, but my experience has been that James' ground plane measurements usually don't match all that well with the factory specs. Here's his measurement of the big hog Perlisten S7t

Lol "big hog." S7t is a nice speaker, but the value is highly questionable.

Pierre's database has the Audioholics measurements of the S7t complete with groundplane measurement spliced on. Their data shows the S7t is -10.5 dB at 30Hz, relative to 100Hz. The mfgr data shows -7.6dB. If we assume Perlisten's data is accurate, the Audioholic's measurement is 2.9dB low. This discrepancy is on par with the difference between your measurement and Audioholic's, and backs up your data.

Pierre's database also shows good agreement (0.9dB at 30Hz, relative to 100) between the EAC and manufacturer measurements of the S4b. This provides some validation for the Perlisten factory data and further backs your claim.

The BMR tower is still lacking spinorama data. It would be nice if someone could get one to Erin's audio or Amir to take measurements. The impressive bass extension would certainly help the listener preference score.

I'm also curious to know what is going on with the groundplane measurements at audioholics. I measure speakers on a 23ft pole, which is enough to get the ground reflection -20dB down and only adds 1/20dB ripple to the measurement (at least that's my belief).

As I alluded to earlier, the F208 still has substantial advantages in efficiency (>2x) and maximum acoustic output, in addition to good spinorama data. If the BMR tower is put in the spinorama and receives a higher listener preference score, one would still need to weigh that against the differences in efficiency and output vs F208.

 

[tw 2022]

S7t is a nice speaker, but the value is highly questionable

That's kinda projecting dontcha think?...i can't see a single word assessing value, just fr and t.l. rolloff...

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Lol "big hog." S7t is a nice speaker, but the value is highly questionable.

Pierre's database has the Audioholics measurements of the S7t complete with groundplane measurement spliced on. Their data shows the S7t is -10.5 dB at 30Hz, relative to 100Hz. The mfgr data shows -7.6dB. If we assume Perlisten's data is accurate, the Audioholic's measurement is 2.9dB low. This discrepancy is on par with the difference between your measurement and Audioholic's, and backs up your data.

Pierre's database also shows good agreement (0.9dB at 30Hz, relative to 100) between the EAC and manufacturer measurements of the S4b. This provides some validation for the Perlisten factory data and further backs your claim.

The BMR tower is still lacking spinorama data. It would be nice if someone could get one to Erin's audio or Amir to take measurements. The impressive bass extension would certainly help the listener preference score.

I'm also curious to know what is going on with the groundplane measurements at audioholics. I measure speakers on a 23ft pole, which is enough to get the ground reflection -20dB down and only adds 1/20dB ripple to the measurement (at least that's my belief).

As I alluded to earlier, the F208 still has substantial advantages in efficiency (>2x) and maximum acoustic output, in addition to good spinorama data. If the BMR tower is put in the spinorama and receives a higher listener preference score, one would still need to weigh that against the differences in efficiency and output vs F208.

Thanks for the research. The Audioholicsfull-range measurements for the tower show pretty much text book behavior off axis, assuming you think very broad dispersion is a plus. I'm not sure spin data would add much.

 

[Taiga]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and the good discussion. I am getting closer to a decision, but thought I would add a couple of additional considerations in my selection process.

1) In addition to good musical fidelity, I want something that looks good, i.e. furniture quality appearance. I think both the BMRs and the Revels would be fine, but I haven’t seen either in person.
2) I was hoping that there would be more comments about Salk speakers or transmission line speakers in general. Not sure whether or not I should be looking at TL speakers in the $3-4k range.

I listen to mostly bluegrass, classical, jazz, and blues, along with some rock such as Neil Young. I am not interested in HT or gaming.

Thanks!

 

[AlexanderM]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and the good discussion. I am getting closer to a decision, but thought I would add a couple of additional considerations in my selection process.

1) In addition to good musical fidelity, I want something that looks good, i.e. furniture quality appearance. I think both the BMRs and the Revels would be fine, but I haven’t seen either in person.
2) I was hoping that there would be more comments about Salk speakers or transmission line speakers in general. Not sure whether or not I should be looking at TL speakers in the $3-4k range.

I listen to mostly bluegrass, classical, jazz, and blues, along with some rock such as Neil Young. I am not interested in HT or gaming.

Thanks!

The Revel 208's are still on sale at Crutchfield, I'd love to have a pair, they are $7-8K up here in Canada.

 

[Everett T]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and the good discussion. I am getting closer to a decision, but thought I would add a couple of additional considerations in my selection process.

1) In addition to good musical fidelity, I want something that looks good, i.e. furniture quality appearance. I think both the BMRs and the Revels would be fine, but I haven’t seen either in person.
2) I was hoping that there would be more comments about Salk speakers or transmission line speakers in general. Not sure whether or not I should be looking at TL speakers in the $3-4k range.

I listen to mostly bluegrass, classical, jazz, and blues, along with some rock such as Neil Young. I am not interested in HT or gaming.

Thanks!

Salk has a few TL designs but also bass reflex. The Salk's will get expensive impart to the availability of furniture grade finishes (they will do any finish you can think of including automative) but remember you will be waiting for at least 6 months, currently. I waited 8 months for my Song 3 Encores and didn't mind because the finish was just as important. You can also get those finishes on the BMR Tower, but for a higher price.

 

[Speaker_tweaker]

Thanks for the research. The Audioholicsfull-range measurements for the tower show pretty much text book behavior off axis, assuming you think very broad dispersion is a plus. I'm not sure spin data would add much.

The spin data would add power response.

 

[Speaker_tweaker]

That's kinda projecting dontcha think?...i can't see a single word assessing value, just fr and t.l. rolloff...

Do you think the $16,000 S7t would outperform the $5500 Revel F208 in blind testing? I wouldn't bet on it. We're talking two speakers with basically idential F10 and listener preference scores. Additionally, the 1W/1m spl (not 2.83V) is essentially the same and the swept volume of the woofers is probably the same. So where's the added value in the S7t?

The Perlisten probably has the edge - the directivity is more uniform and the frequency response is smoother. Additionally it probably has better thermal compression properties. But even if it does perform better, how much better would it be? Would blind listeners say one speaker is worth 3x the other? I seriously doubt it.

 

[Speaker_tweaker]

I listen to mostly bluegrass, classical, jazz, and blues, along with some rock such as Neil Young. I am not interested in HT or gaming.

I believe the idea that certain speakers are suited to certain types of music is a myth, although I used to think otherwise. '

There's an old study from the 60s that split speakers of the day into two camps. It claimed one type of bass roll off was more suited to pop, and the other orchestral. Speakers in the "pop" group were very boomy and don't really exist in the hifi world today.

 

[thewas]

The spin data would add power response.

Also early reflections and their vertical measurements are very limited for those.

 

[FrantzM]

Do you think the $16,000 S7t would outperform the $5500 Revel F208 in blind testing? I wouldn't bet on it. We're talking two speakers with basically idential F10 and listener preference scores. Additionally, the 1W/1m spl (not 2.83V) is essentially the same and the swept volume of the woofers is probably the same. So where's the added value in the S7t?

The Perlisten probably has the edge - the directivity is more uniform and the frequency response is smoother. Additionally it probably has better thermal compression properties. But even if it does perform better, how much better would it be? Would blind listeners say one speaker is worth 3x the other? I seriously doubt it.

Hi
Interesting argument.
....

A personal observation, a hunch, perhaps data can back it up , too lazy to dig for it. It seems to me that whenever advices for speakers are asked for , we see mentioned, in this order: Genelec, Neuman, Revel/Kef... then ... "Other"... Louspeakers with serious performances are often ignored by us, yours very truly included. I admit preferring active to passive, but...
Those speakers, the Revel F208 and the Philharmonic Audio BMR are stellar performer, they would own their own against almost anything, passive or active, in a medium size room. It is true they require amplification but, the price of transparent, very high SINAD amplification is today low with 200 wpc amplifier around $500 or lower, and the better AVR are able to provide 100 clean watts per channel. These speakers represent a very, very compelling choice for many, I included.

I don't think the BMR Philharmonic Tower have been reviewed here at ASR. Their smaller brother was reviewed by @hardisj, if (speculative but based on pedigree) the designer being the same) the tower have that kind of performance, they must be strongly considered at $3700.oo. They are on my short list for if-ever-I-feel-the-need-to-upgrade...

Peace

 

[tw 2022]

Do you think the $16,000 S7t would outperform the $5500 Revel F208 in blind testing? I wouldn't bet on it. We're talking two speakers with basically idential F10 and listener preference scores. Additionally, the 1W/1m spl (not 2.83V) is essentially the same and the swept volume of the woofers is probably the same. So where's the added value in the S7t?

The Perlisten probably has the edge - the directivity is more uniform and the frequency response is smoother. Additionally it probably has better thermal compression properties. But even if it does perform better, how much better would it be? Would blind listeners say one speaker is worth 3x the other? I seriously doubt it.

never even considered that it would or wouldn't, Dennis merely used it as a prop (a comparison in raw form)...

 

[Everett T]

never even considered that it would or wouldn't, Dennis merely used it as a prop (a comparison in raw form)...

The people that are buying the S7t are looking to leave nothing on the table, even if it isn't audible to most. Other then the Salon 2, nothing Revel is offering will match S7t, preference score aside. There is a lot of engineering going on with that speaker, including the two tunings. The THX Dominus rating is no easy feat to achieve and the only loudspeaker that has been submitted and achieved it (aside from some subwoofers) to date.

 

[tw 2022]

The people that are buying the S7t are looking to leave nothing on the table, even if it isn't audible to most. Other then the Salon 2, nothing Revel is offering will match S7t, preference score aside. There is a lot of engineering going on with that speaker, including the two tunings. The THX Dominus rating is no easy feat to achieve and the only loudspeaker that has been submitted and achieved it (aside from some subwoofers) to date.

i figured as much, but if you go back a few posts : Dennis made the comp to the s7t purely as a comp to his bmr's in respect to transmission line roll off for room gain... i don't think he was referring to anything past that , price or overall performance included...i was eluding to a back and forth where i believe the other poster was projecting those things into the conversation...my thought is that is an entirely different subject...

 

[Everett T]

i figured as much, but if you go back a few posts : Dennis made the comp to the s7t purely as a comp to his bmr's in respect to transmission line roll off for room gain... i don't think he was referring to anything past that , price or overall performance included...i was eluding to a back and forth where i believe the other poster was projecting those things into the conversation...my thought is that is an entirely different subject...

The S7 isnt a transmission line, but a bass reflex and acoustic suspension. Dennis was showing the measurement in reply to a question regarding the shape of the curve on a more expensive (and much larger) speaker.

In the end, the BMR Tower will give up some spl to the F208 and have different off axis characteristics and distortion at the tweeter level. Me personally, I like the TL loading more then I need the extra SPL and I've heard the revelator woofer in 3 different TL designs (same math obviously) and it is impressive to me.

 

[tw 2022]

The S7 isnt a transmission line, but a bass reflex and acoustic suspension.

my bad , i was mistaken ..i assumed t.l. .....edit: i don't even familiarize myself with speakers that expensive ..it helps with eliminating stress and fomo...

 

[DMill]

1) In addition to good musical fidelity, I want something that looks good, i.e. furniture quality appearance. I think both the BMRs and the Revels would be fine, but I haven’t seen either in person

As far as objective performance is concerned we can go back and forth between the Revels and BMRs. As to which you prefer for looks… now that is completely subjective. Both are beautiful in their own way. To me Revels look more “high-tech” whereas BMRs are more like furniture with their amazing wood grain finishes. And even customizable if you go through SALK. Personally I like BMR but I could more than easily live with either as the last speaker I’d ever need to buy.