New system - just wanted to share

[killdozzer]

I've been through a lot and lost all I had so I had to start anew. Silver lining is, this made me realize how much you can do with a few hundred bucks these days. Here's the system (warning, it's a bit "Freshman-like"):


Just a small living room, but in this case the dimensions helpped. No matter how basic the Yamaha sub is, in-room response I can measure 30Hz quite audible. I was sending low freqs and tried to measure them, even a very quiet 20Hz was audible, I'm guessing -10dB. I was lucky that empty little corner right next to my doors also makes it sound really good. It's smooth, not a "one-note" boomy fill, scales up and down, it's quite soothing. I may experiment a little bit to see if there's even a better placement, but this will do for now.

Watching Project Hail Mary... The entire room really rumbles nicely when needed. The other thing is, these small KEF speakers. These are the IQ10s, it was the smallest model in the line for that year of production. Still, they do play audible 50Hz and even 40 slightly less loud.

The Yamaha Receiver I'm using is the RX-V795a RDS. More than powerful enough (much more, in fact) for such a small room and relatively speaking, undemanding speakers. A tiny, tiny peeve I have with it is that it has a fixed frequency filter set at 90Hz on the Sub-Out which is more than I would send to the sub and the mains are quite capable of playing 90Hz. OTOH, it looks like out-of-the-box, really well kept and it came with the original remote. Works like a charm.

Still, if one has time and is willing to play around with it, it can sound amazing (or at least amazing for the money). The records are the biggest surprise. I think sub really helps them sound better. What you're left with is tone controls, "Bass-Extension" button and the volume on the sub to dial it in. The sub has no other controls, it is really basic. Bass-Extension is like Loudness and you can find in the manual exactly how much dB it adds and to what freq. I was going by ear.

I'm playing my stereo in 2.1, same as movies and I get a feeling of a full-range system (almost). The 90Hz cut-off still works well enough not to be able to locate the sub. I guess It was more luck than smarts, but the sub really melted away behind the mains and it feels like the lows are emitting directly from those small KEF mains. It has some oomph for the EDM, and nice smooth bass for the bass guitar. I really like it.

Next step is to add the NAS with my music library and I'm good to go.

 

[Redacted]

If the sub has its own volume and XO controls, you can feed it with the full-range pre-out from the amp (may need LR Y-cable) to get round the 90Hz issue.

 

[killdozzer]

If the sub has its own volume and XO controls, you can feed it with the full-range pre-out from the amp (may need LR Y-cable) to get round the 90Hz issue.

Thank you very much. It only has volume level.


So in this instance, I have to get by with the 90Hz Low Pass Filter. This specific model, being the cheapest of the range, has no controls and is designed to receive the full range signal or a signal already DSP-ed or XO-ed. OTOH, when you go in the Yamaha set up, in the DSP, there is a sub-out channel volume, but this is to attenuate it and not change the roll off.

 

[killdozzer]

Funny thing about this volume knob on a sub. I honestly don't have that much experience with subs. Volume on a sub is... Closer to the "amount of bass you want to hear". It's not like a master volume that you need to change every time you want louder or quieter. It's a "set-and-forget" knob that just tells you the amount of lows you want to add to your listening experience. Yamaha suggests to set it in the middle as a rule-of-thumb. I tried that but it's either my room reinforces the lows to well or I'm not that much of a bass-head.

I'm just under 4 (on a scale from 0 to 10). I know this is not a precise language, but I'm trying to say "under the middle value".

What I tried to do, remembering the advice from someone who knows his stuff, was to set everything to my liking and then turn off mains. Just to see what's the actual task of the sub. I listened to a couple of songs from start to end with mains turned off. It is interesting experience. What it allows you to hear more clearly is whether the sub is recreating the entire low end (up to its possibilities) or just its tuning point. This is something I've experienced as a bad sub set up - it, more or less, just sits there inertly until a proper note hits it and then it reproduces that single, particular note.

 

[SGiniS]

Love your project and I'm sure it sound very good! I bet it's better than a lot of systems realized with way more money but less thought.

Are you adding room correction/eq using your pc as a source?
Besides room treatment, Imho this would be the only sensible difference you may still want.

 

[killdozzer]

Love your project and I'm sure it sound very good! I bet it's better than a lot of systems realized with way more money but less thought.

Are you adding room correction/eq using your pc as a source?
Besides room treatment, Imho this would be the only sensible difference you may still want.

You make a good point. Obviously, the room could use some treatment. But I rent at the moment so it's not advisable to glue panels on the walls behind the mains. The owner might object.

That doesn't mean you're not right, of course.

Thank you for your comment. I agree and also believe this sounds better than, for example, slapping two overpriced speakers with an overpriced tube-amp etc.

Next step is this NAS I own with loads of really good rips of FLAC digital files. I'll connect it directly to my laptop since, being a tenant, I don't have access to all the nooks and crannies to share the NAS over wi-fi. After that, I'd like to send a digital signal from my laptop to my Yamaha receiver and use the Yamaha's DAC. I don't doubt the laptop DAC, but I've noticed using 3.5mm out on my laptop is rather noisy. (For example, if I turn the volume on my receiver all the way up with no music playing and select the channel I connect my laptop through, it has a lot of noise, like hum. At the moment I go 3.5mm headphones out to L/R RCA into an input on my Yamaha. Very noisy.)

This will cut out my work for me because my laptop is rather basic and doesn't have a digital out that I can use with my Yamaha. I'm still trying to figure it out in my head... The direction I'm thinking in is going USB-A out on my NAS to the SPDIF coaxial on my Yamaha... I see such a cable exists, but I've never tried. Have to play around with it a little bit.

In this case, I'm planning to use the projector as my screen, a wireless mouse as an interface, go in to the NAS and play digital files over Synology's own player that sends the signal over the USB. I still don't know if this will work. I'm expecting to see the files and pick and choose over the projector and the player will send the digital signal to the coaxial digital in on my receiver.

 

[killdozzer]

BTW, I must say I really like this 2.1 type of stereo sound. I'm amazed how the sub blends in. It's not noticeable at all. Also, I turned the lows down a little bit on my mains to make the work easier for them. It's much cleaner this way. You can go pretty loud before it distorts.

 

[killdozzer]

The direction I'm thinking in is going USB-A out on my NAS to the SPDIF coaxial on my Yamaha... I see such a cable exists, but I've never tried. Have to play around with it a little bit.
View attachment 544919

In this case, I'm planning to use the projector as my screen, a wireless mouse as an interface, go in to the NAS and play digital files over Synology's own player that sends the signal over the USB. I still don't know if this will work. I'm expecting to see the files and pick and choose over the projector and the player will send the digital signal to the coaxial digital in on my receiver.

Damn! This doesn't work.

I used to own a little dongle that was an USB-A dac/amp. I would stick this in my NAS and go with a plain cable from this dac/amp to my amp. For some reason my ex took the dongle. I don't think she even knows what it is.

 

[Ruediger]

I recommend a WiiM mini. It will play from NAS and everything else, goes into toslink. Cheap, superb app and possibilities.

 

[killdozzer]

I recommend a WiiM mini. It will play from NAS and everything else, goes into toslink. Cheap, superb app and possibilities.

Thank you very much for the recommendation. If I may ask, what would be the easiest way to connect my NAS to the amp? I see WiiM only has BT, 3,5 jack and WiFi... I really don't see how this help. And in my parts it's 80€ which is not all that cheap since you can find a dongle like this for 15€.

 

[killdozzer]

Love your project and I'm sure it sound very good! I bet it's better than a lot of systems realized with way more money but less thought.

Are you adding room correction/eq using your pc as a source?
Besides room treatment, Imho this would be the only sensible difference you may still want.

You made me think... I'm guessing for room correction these days all you really need is a decent mic. Surely you can find a decent room correction software for the PC. Of course, this would only work if you use your PC as a source, then again, I often do. i might give this a try.

 

[Ruediger]

Thank you very much for the recommendation. If I may ask, what would be the easiest way to connect my NAS to the amp? I see WiiM only has BT, 3,5 jack and WiFi... I really don't see how this help.

NAS and WiiM on the same network = connected. Wired or wireless is not important as long as reception is good.

 

[SGiniS]

You don't even need an high end mic, I recall on an avr forum they tested dirac with the avr mic vs. the umik-1 and the results were said to be the same (but not mesured).
Room correction from a pc has many advantages, but it's less plug and play to plan (once done it's as convenient as a normal streamer with some bonus).
However, to go from the pc to your avr you will need a usb-toslink converter (a converter, not all usb-toslink are the same).
Before to proceed, i would strongly advice you to decide if you prefer to put more effort and time for the upgrade (in exchange for some advantages) vs. the easy path (never underestimate an easy system). For exemple the wiim mini it has been suggested to you by Ruediger also has now RoomFit (kinda room correction, but I don't know it), both toslink out, wireless connection to NAS and you can connect with 3.5mm to a pc if you prefer room correction from the pc in the future.

 

[killdozzer]

NAS and WiiM on the same network = connected. Wired or wireless is not important as long as reception is good.

A, ok. That's not working for me. I have no access to modem/router. Thanks anyway. BTW, a USB DAC dongle seems cheaper and easier. NAS > LAN > laptop > USB/DAC dongle > 3,5mm > rca > receiver input.

Like this:

 

[Ruediger]

A little DAC dongle will give you the worst of audio quality possible here. Yep it's cheap and easy.

Your receiver is no sound wonder, but it's possible to feed it quality up to it's ability without going through great lengths.

 

[killdozzer]

However, to go from the pc to your avr you will need a usb-toslink converter (a converter, not all usb-toslink are the same).

Thanks SGiniS. Why, thou? I can DSP the signal in my laptop and send it over my 3,5 headphones out from my pc to my avr.

 

[killdozzer]

A little DAC dongle will give you the worst of audio quality possible here. Yep it's cheap and easy.

Your receiver is no sound wonder, but it's possible to feed it quality up to it's ability without going through great lengths.

You have quite a few misconceptions. My avr, being neutral and stable to lower impedance is precisely as much of a "sound wonder" as any stable 2x85 w/ch into 8 ohm and 130 w/ch into 4. Amps don't sound. You can check this site to see how dongles test these days. No audio quality lost there. I wouldn't waste my concern on dongles.

Bottleneck here are the speakers and room treatment, but these are out of my hands for the time being.

 

[Ruediger]

Wasn't referring to your amp sounding. But to what you feed it that it will then amplify. Signal, DAC and pre-amp section make for all the quality when the amp is operating within it's designed area. It's also there where degradation can happen easily.

 

[SGiniS]

Thanks SGiniS. Why, thou? I can DSP the signal in my laptop and send it over my 3,5 headphones out from my pc to my avr.

Toslink is a better transport lane than rca to my knowledge (you introduce an extra conversion with rca), but I admit I have no idea if the difference may be audible or not (the highest risk maybe is it would catch up some noise, but I think you won't and it's so cheap that is worth to try) .
Anyway the chain you proposed is way cheaper and the improvement of room correction/eq will be much greater than the potential loss of some audio quality.
I think you should try as you said if you are looking for the best deal of cost/improvement.

I think (with the subwoofer and room correction) your speaker is a smaller bottleneck than one can imagine. The room correction will also cut peak sounds, so room treatment would be a lot less required. Of course it may still be a big further improvement, but in a living room, for many it's easily too much of a trade-off IMHO.

 

[whazzup]

Good stuff. In case you haven't, can set your KEF mains to 'small' in the avr to alleviate some stress from reproducing the lower frequencies. From what I've seen and read so far about the KEF coaxials (like them lots!), they're not meant to go below 100hz, their distortion almost always goes up below 200hz.

Good youtube track to check the sub / speaker crossover by ear: